0:00 what advice would you give to someone who wants to start a circular economy in their hometown that is a great question 0:05 I will come back to that juicy B example I gave because when you identify a problem in your community you can use 0:12 bitcoin as a tool to solve that problem Now you want to solve that challenge for 0:18 your community for your clients for your peers You know how can you potentially use bitcoin as a tool to empower them 0:25 even further um because the more we're using bitcoin as a tool to solve these 0:31 challenges the more people will use it because we're actually solving a problem right have small meetups Don't don't be 0:38 afraid that okay no no one will show up Sometimes no one will show up but then sometimes one one person shows up and 0:44 then it just you know gets bigger and bigger from there So holding local meetups virtual meetups there is 0:50 honestly endless amount of opportunities that you can do here if you truly want to spread knowledge and education And I 0:57 think that is really what's needed for a successful circular economy is that 1:02 these merchants need an opportunity to come together and ask questions How do we take what someone is doing in a 1:10 circular economy here in Peru in motive Peru to something like bitcoin Ola in Anuja’s Microsoft to bitcoin journey 1:17 Botswana in Africa you know and how do we learn from each other 1:23 [Music] medium of exchange is brought to you by 1:30 Polaris payments let's face it for now businesses still need to take fiat and 1:36 credit cards Polaris Payments helps with all your credit card processing needs using a 1:42 consultative approach Think of Polaris like a performance coach helping take your business to the next level when it 1:48 comes to accepting all forms of money For more information check out polarispayments.com 1:54 Now let's get back to the show I mean we can keep ripping off that na if you just want to take a step back cuz I think 2:00 getting into your story and your background I'm going to just hand it off to you and and let us know how you got 2:05 into bitcoin and what that journey has been like for you Yeah I I'd be happy happy to share So I'll give you guys a 2:10 little bit more more context on my background and what my journey was into bitcoin Um so I'm Indian but I was I 2:19 grew up in Canada I did engineering and then I got a job at Microsoft Uh not as 2:24 a coder or a programmer I actually suck at coding Um but I'm very much like a people person I love being around people 2:31 So I know that's kind of what I wanted to do and I've always had this curiosity with technology and so I ended up in 2:36 actually technical sales at Microsoft which was like a perfect mix of understanding the technology but being 2:43 able to help people solve business problems that are happening in their industry which was super cool So I would 2:48 say I did that for about seven years You know I was very much focused on climbing that corporate ladder Um and I did love 2:55 what I was doing But I think after kind of during the time where co hit and a lot of us went through some realization 3:02 and reflection of like you know is there more out there than climbing the 3:08 corporate ladder is there more to see in this world um and my husband and I really do share this like passion of 3:14 travel we love love to travel and really you know have new experiences And so we 3:20 decided that you know we we we don't want to have regrets and we don't want to have like what if there's something 3:25 else out there because we could have just stayed in in the corporate world Like it it's a great life It's what most 3:31 of us do It's the golden handcuffs right but we did kind of decide that if we're going to do something like quit and 3:38 travel this is the time to do it This is the time to take a little bit of that risk So we put pretty much put together 3:45 like a timeline We saved towards it We booked like a one-way flight and we quit 3:50 our jobs And as we were going through all of this my view on bitcoin at this point to be honest was it's just an 3:58 investment And the reason why my viewpoint was that was that from that lens at that point is because my husband 4:05 was really really passionate about bitcoin like this I will tell you guys he was a little bit crazy to a point 4:11 where he was out on the streets holding a sign that said like "Ask me anything 4:17 about bitcoin." Like every day this guy went out because you know what he realized he's such an interesting 4:23 character and that's why I love him cuz he realized he was spending so much time on X you know and on X it's like the 4:30 same things same people that are seeing He's like I need to get out of this and I need to see what's happening in the real world and he's like "Well how the 4:37 hell do I even do that?" We were in like a small city in Canada We weren't in Toronto at this point We were kind of 4:42 out west in Calgary So he's like "I'm just going to go to the streets." And so this is why I'm still working at 4:48 Microsoft And he's literally standing on the same street that I usually take my clients out for lunch or dinner And in 4:54 my head I'm like I hope I don't freaking see him on the street because then I have to explain to my co-workers or my 5:00 clients that what my husband is doing And I thought he was crazy at that time But long story short that probably gives 5:05 you a perspective of how passionate he was to a certain extent That made me 5:11 feel like okay well since he's so deep into it he knows it Like why do I have to know it you know and a lot of times Egypt and hyperinflation: eye-opening moment 5:18 in like a couple or you know when your partner's into something you were like "Okay well they got that covered I I'll 5:24 focus on something else." And so you know of course I was curious and I would ask him a lot of questions but there 5:30 there was nothing that was making me like genuinely be like I really want to look into this Okay Um so that's kind of 5:36 a backstory of like where I was at when we decided we were going to take some time off to travel And both of us really 5:43 really wanted to see Africa It was a continent that was very untouched for 5:48 both of us from just like a travel perspective and my husband his name is Santos and he was really curious about 5:54 how bitcoin was being adopted on the ground in Africa So it wasn't until we 5:59 started traveling and we landed in Egypt and that was my firhand experience of 6:07 actually seeing the impact of inflation because yes we see it we hear about it 6:13 in Canada in the states in the west but I don't necessarily know how much we 6:19 feel it you know where when we got to Egypt I learned something that was so 6:25 interesting guys like when we got there We exchanged some US dollars to Egyptian 6:30 pounds just just at a bank But we met some locals and they're like "No don't do that because there's actually a black 6:37 rate for US dollars on the streets." Which in my mind was like I couldn't 6:42 even comprehend that that was a thing because their currency is losing 6:48 purchasing power pretty much overnight And so the locals in Egypt are wanting to save their money in whatever the 6:55 strongest currency there is and for them it's US dollars So they're like "We'll pay you more Egyptian pounds for your US 7:01 dollars Give it to me and don't go through the bank." Seeing that hearing stories of you know these small business 7:08 owners that pretty much have lost their savings overnight or like half of their 7:14 savings are being slashed overnight And it's just it was just so unfortunate You know it was really really sad to see it 7:21 And no matter how much we hear about these stories or we see the news or we talk to people at the end of the day a 7:27 lot of times we're just sitting in Canada and like our own little bubble and you know doing our own own life But 7:34 when when you put take yourself out of that position and actually put yourself around these people and you see that Seeing bitcoin as a medium of exchange 7:40 every day them talking about it especially the younger generation there they're like "How am I ever supposed to 7:46 like save for my family?" It really puts things into perspective That's made that 7:51 that was what made me question like okay so you know there is something that is 7:57 bad money and how good money eventually does outweigh bad money So it really got 8:02 me thinking about the history of money And then as we continued our travels we kind of did like Egypt from East Africa 8:09 And by the way we did Africa we we did Cairo to Cape Town by bus which was also 8:15 kind of crazy but an adventure Wow And we crossed kind of like on the east 8:20 side of Africa So when we were in East Africa so I'm talking like Kenya Tanzania Uganda that was when I saw 8:28 actual medium of exchange Like that's when I saw people accepting bitcoin 8:34 That's when I even heard the concept of like a bitcoin cir circular economy and what that is And that again was another 8:41 like moment where everything just like clicked for me where it's like wow First Egypt you know their local currency is 8:48 pretty much dying So what are they supposed to do then you're seeing more countries that are actually adopting 8:54 bitcoin and they're using it as money and they're able to empower these small businesses They have a better way to 9:00 hold their purchasing power And I was like holy like this this is so 9:06 fascinating And I'm a very like practical kind of person So for me if I don't kind of see it happening like it 9:12 doesn't click as fast And so that was sort of the backstory of like how I 9:18 really got intrigued by what it is how it made me question our existing system 9:24 how it made me question like just money in general So yeah that's that's a little bit of the background on my 9:31 bitcoin journey That's amazing How are some of those folks like that realization that aha moment in Egypt did 9:37 you talk to them like how are some of them you know saving or or like managing would would it be considered 9:42 hyperinflation it would be considered hyperinflation And it's so interesting that you bring that up because I'm pretty sure at one point one of the 9:48 individuals we spoke to was actually just buying cars They were just buying things that held purchasing power better 9:55 than the Egyptian pounds Yeah So many of them were just finding their own ways 10:00 whether it's land whether it's you know cars whether it's it's something that's like a limited resource right that 10:08 hopefully we'll keep appreciating in time And the the very very unfortunate part about Egypt guys is actually it's 10:14 one of the only countries that we've been to that actually has come out and said that bitcoin is illegal So we 10:21 couldn't even really be as vocal as we wanted to because even if we spoke to a 10:26 lot of the business owners they couldn't put like a bitcoin sign or we accept bitcoin because you know they were 10:32 telling us stories like they might even go to jail Like it's just it's really not something that they're allowed to do 10:39 So yes even if they did understand bitcoin even if they wanted to accept bitcoin they can't even be vocal about 10:46 it which again very unfortunate And honestly Jason I think most of them just 10:51 try to get jobs Like the younger generation will try to get companies that are you know from the state so they 10:58 can earn in US dollars or they just try to get around that system But for most of them they're just living kind of like 11:04 hand-to-mouth with whatever they're able to do So we so we hear about inflation here in the United States and then you go to Egypt and you see it like in a 11:11 very visceral way like very real like much more extreme way and then you're traveling through Eastern Africa and 11:18 just just like take a step back for some of our listeners So when we talk about medium of exchange we're talking about 11:24 like usefulness of something like bitcoin right like paying for goods and services and then can you tell us a 11:30 little bit about like what a circular economy even is for those of us who might not be as familiar of course Um 11:36 the way I would really define a circular economy in simple terms is just a community of businesses that are 11:43 accepting bitcoin and also paying their employees in bitcoin because sure if 11:48 you're accepting bitcoin that's great but if you don't have anyone that has bitcoin no one's going to pay you in bitcoin So first of all how do you get 11:55 bitcoin into the hands of people there that will then want to spend it at the merchants so you have to create some 12:01 sort of this like chicken and an egg some sort of a circular motion here right and so that's what we've seen in 12:07 many of these circular economies is that a lot of merchants not a lot but let's say a handful of merchants are accepting 12:13 bitcoin But what they're telling us is that only 1% of their payments come in bitcoin because no one really has 12:19 bitcoin to give them right so in order to have like a successful you know 12:25 circular economy like the thought leaders or or the leaders of the that community need to figure out like how do 12:30 we get how do we get our community paid in bitcoin so they actually have access to this money that they can go spend And 12:37 I can give you guys like this example of a juice shop in Uganda So we we spent 12:43 about 3 months in Uganda and what we found was that Uganda actually has some of the most sweetest fruits that we've 12:50 tasted like super sweet Their pineapples are amazing all year round But what we found was that they didn't really serve 12:56 like natural juice A lot of the juice was still like had a lot of preservatives and we're like "This is 13:03 interesting." We're like "Why don't they just you know take the pineapple and just serve the pineapple as is in its 13:08 natural form It's healthier." Um so we were talking to a few of our friends 13:13 that are local Ugandans So they're from Uganda They're in the bitcoin space And then we came up with this crazy idea 13:19 We're like well why don't we just open a juice shop and we'll be a bitcoin preferred juice business a small 13:25 business And so we did that Um it was just kind of like this crazy fun idea that we had and we're like why don't we Starting Juicy B in Uganda 13:31 actually do this and see how it helps the community You and your friends you opened a juice shop in Uganda We did 13:38 Yeah Amazing Is my husband and I definition of you can just do things honestly right you really can And like a 13:45 big shout out to our friends Brendan and Aon So the four of us we came together We got this like small little small 13:51 little shop It's nothing crazy It's like literally like a juice bar but we found a spot near one of the biggest 13:57 universities in East Africa which is in Uganda And so this way we get to actually speak with a lot of the younger 14:02 generation which would be perfect And of course we named it Juicy B B for the bitcoin And um you know we we started 14:09 serving juice and it was great And people would come and question be like "What does this be mean?" And we had some like cool like subtle signs of 14:16 bitcoin nothing like two in your face But the problem we found out really really soon is that no one's going to 14:23 pay us in bitcoin because these kids don't have access to bitcoin So how do we solve this problem and my husband had 14:30 a brilliant idea He said "Why don't we come up with a loyalty program?" So if 14:35 you buy five juices we'll give you back a,000 shillings which is their uh local 14:41 currency We'll give you back a,000 shillings but only in bitcoin So our customers are coming to us and being 14:48 like "Well you're going to give me money It's new money Explain what this new money is to me." And then right there we 14:53 open up you know our lightning wallets We talk to them about what it is They see how how fast they're getting the 14:59 money and they're like "Holy." And now it's up to them to either save that or come back and spend it with us or at 15:06 another shop that accepts bitcoin in that circular economy I can't remember the question that got me to talk about 15:12 your TV Now I don't know This is amazing though I It's like you have broken money you have better forms of money you have 15:19 people that there's an educational gap unaware of better forms of money and then you just do things open up 15:24 businesses find ways to bring people into the fold more aware of better forms 15:29 of money and using it It's amazing Well and to add on to that to add on to that not only are you just getting bitcoin in 15:36 the hands of people you're doing it in a way where you're providing them a better service like you said the juice shops 15:41 they were putting additives they were putting things that aren't good to really accentuate the the the like 15:46 quality of of the pineapple or the fruits that were in Uganda And that's what's so amazing about bitcoin too is 15:52 because like because you have that lower time preference Yes You're able to take you're able to take that to say we're 15:57 gonna make a juice that's so good people are going to come five times and then we're going to give them some reward back to use a better money and that The loyalty rewards sats program 16:04 creates the flywheel cuz to your point the chicken and the egg problem is 16:09 probably the largest problem that small businesses take uh or take on when when thinking about accepting bitcoin Why 16:15 would I accept bitcoin when none of my customers hold bitcoin no one's going to pay Right And what's incredible about that 16:22 story and I'm sure we'll get into it as well with some of your other travels and and the business that you're working on 16:28 now is this idea of bitcoin in like the eastern developing world and then the 16:34 Western world and how we view it initially as an investment as a savings vehicle but then where the money is 16:40 broken where there is instances of real hyperinflation happening it's an escape route And I think one of the things that 16:46 you said that was interesting is people trying to figure out a way around the system versus bitcoin being a way 16:51 outside of the system right so what I love to think about from like bitcoin as 16:57 a cultural movement a global cultural movement is again like the West we use it as a savings vehicle and you know 17:03 it's that real store of value But then in the developing world where they need better money they're the ones that are 17:09 thinking of really innovative ways to get it into the hands of folks and to create those circular economies So I I 17:16 just want to I love that Yes And I just then eventually water will find its 17:21 level and bitcoin we're in a hyper bitcoinized world That's my that's my long long drawn out thesis that you know 17:29 whether it takes 10 or or 20 or 100 years that's I think what's going to happen But go ahead And I'm trying to 17:34 I'm trying to think of that one line where it's like you know how a lot of the in innovation is created from challenges You know there is this I 17:41 can't think of that saying but I think you guys know what I'm trying to say Yeah It's like need something comes out 17:47 of need Innovation comes out of need or necessity Innovation comes out of necessity Yeah Yeah Exactly There you go 17:53 And I that's what we see Yeah And that's where really my follow-up question is so 17:58 you you start Juicy B and you see bitcoin get in the hands of these students What was that next step where 18:05 you were like "Oh this is now this is kind of catching fire Were there other businesses that you know were kind of copying or or uh following along your 18:12 lead and what what was that experience like of really seeing a circular economy start to form?" So I would say in Uganda 18:19 there were there were already a few businesses that were accepting bitcoin So it definitely kind of continued to 18:24 motivate them that hey there's new businesses coming out that will accept bitcoin I think for me what was another 18:30 really interesting kind of turning point or that next step was when we hired our 18:36 first employee because initially for the first month we all just took turns we're running a juice shop and then we're like Hiring and paying staff in bitcoin 18:41 okay now we've got it to a point where things are streamlined we can you know potentially hire someone and so we hired 18:46 this like you know super excited energetic kid I say kid but he's like in his 20s like a young a young guy and we 18:55 of course you know wanted to bring him up he didn't know anything about bitcoin But we wanted to bring him we wanted to 19:00 bring him up to speed on what bitcoin is and what we're doing as a business Really wanted to empower him and it came 19:07 to a point where in a couple of weeks he was like willing to be paid in bitcoin and to us within a couple weeks Yeah 19:15 Like he attended a few bitcoin meetups again He was surrounded by the four of us you know who were very much like 19:21 talking to my bitcoin journey took years Yeah Yeah Right So that that was really fascinating for me where he just came up 19:28 to speed so quickly It just made so much sense to him And I think Jack kind of going back to your point it's like when 19:33 you have experienced broken money you you were looking for that out right and so then when you when you're like "Holy 19:39 like this could be my out like why not you know take a little bit of that risk 19:44 but you know learn about it and be curious and be open-minded." And that's what what that's what we saw in our 19:50 employee like to a point where he was like speaking in one of like the Twitter spaces like he was super super like he 19:56 got up to speed really quickly and we were paying 50% of his pay in bitcoin So 20:01 that was kind of like that next step for us as a business Just for context So you're in Uganda He's getting previously 20:08 is getting paid in the shilling Correct and what is his like cultural monetary 20:14 context like is the shilling also inflating quickly tell us more about the 20:19 Ugandan currency so I would say it's it's not at the rate of the Egyptian pound but they are facing quite a bit of 20:26 inflation there Uganda in general just has a lot more just from like a corruption perspective there's like less 20:32 trust in the government and so all of that of course is going to create this like concern about you know how do I 20:39 save my money what do do I save my money in so that's really what I would kind of paint the picture for Uganda It's not as 20:45 terrible as the Egyptian pound That's probably the worst that we've seen Yeah But still nothing like the US dollar or 20:52 Canadian dollar Yeah No Yeah So it's it's and and you feel like people get it faster when they're in even more of a 20:58 broken economy It's not Yeah And I think in some way when you know just like let 21:04 let's just think about just in general in life when something goes wrong you know we really question why things are 21:10 going wrong and we try to find a solution but many times in our lives when things are going right and positive 21:16 things are happening we're not sitting there thinking why is this amazing thing happening to me right so we're in our 21:22 little bubble in Canada and US we're getting paid in US dollars we're like yeah 3% inflation 6% inflation but hey 21:28 like I can buy my groceries I'm pay You don't really go out and question it Where for a lot of the other countries 21:35 they don't have that privilege where they're like well I used to be able to afford this bread for this much 21:40 shillings Now it's just doubled and then the last 2 years My pay hasn't doubled How how am I going to I can't afford it 21:47 anymore So they are they're they have to question it would be kind of what we've seen across our travels And so you 21:54 you've mentioned travels that's plural you said how how much you enjoy traveling and how that kind of drew you 22:00 into into really just exploring and leaving your your job in corporate America So I would love to hear about 22:08 some of those travels and now that you have this context of that proof of concept with Juicy B and creating this 22:16 business and creating this circular economy or helping accelerate the circular economy and then continuing on 22:21 across the world you mentioned at the top where you currently are would just love to hear what what has happened in 22:28 combining travel and bitcoin and what you're currently working on So ever since we left we left we left home we 22:34 left Canada in August 2023 Then our plan initially was to do 6 months Africa and 22:41 6 months um Central and South America until we got to Africa and we realized 22:46 that this continent is massive Like of course we know it's a huge continent but because we were taking buses we're like 22:52 they were 16-hour bus rides from one country to another It is huge Okay And 22:59 we realized that we actually really enjoyed the slow travels more We like to get like the example I gave We we want 23:04 to be part of the community We want to give back We want to meet people And so we realized 6 months was just way too 23:10 fast So we're like screw our plan Let's just go by how we feel And we met so 23:16 many incredible people because we did that and I'm so fortunate But while we were traveling and as I got more 23:22 intrigued with bitcoin you know Sentosh and I tried to find as many businesses 23:28 that would accept bitcoin from a tourism perspective cuz we were still there to travel and experience We still wanted to 23:34 do like cool things adventurous things safaris whatever we could do and pay in bitcoin would be ideal Now BTC Maps is How “Travel with bitcoin” was born 23:43 there for sure Um but many times like the listed business it's not fully 23:49 verified like they might not be there anymore or something has changed or their contact information is incorrect 23:55 Uh and obviously it's an open- source platform so we appreciate that these things will happen and it's going to get 24:01 better So we tried our best to use BTC maps but it just wasn't really working out for us And so we were reliant mostly 24:07 on word of mouth you know and through a lot of the community leaders So these are the individuals that really empower 24:15 these bitcoin circular economies in each of the countries So you'll usually find one or two people whether it's on X or 24:21 Noster somewhere you'll find them So through them we would ask like hey do you know any businesses or any tour 24:27 operators we want to go see do this We want to go and see these waterfalls We want to go whitewater rafting Like we 24:33 want to go gorilla trekking like who can we pay in bitcoin that will do that for us So it definitely took a lot of effort 24:39 to find them But the good part is there are businesses that accept bitcoin in the tourism space And so as we kind of 24:46 finished our travels at this point we're in Cape Town We've spent about 14 months in Africa and we are exhausted We're 24:54 like we are tired people So we decided we're just going to stick around in Cape 24:59 Town for two months and just like take everything in reflect on everything we've seen And then we were kind of talking about how hey like there's 25:06 potentially a gap here You know there is isn't really a niche marketplace for 25:13 traveling with bitcoin And again I say niche and I emphasize on that niche because it's first businesses that 25:20 accept bitcoin Second in the travel space And we were talking about this earlier There's not a lot of people that 25:25 are even spending their bitcoin right now So possibly there wasn't really a need for it But then we kind of started 25:33 questioning well we did it right sentosh and I did it We met some other travelers 25:38 from North America that were kind of doing what we were doing also trying to travel with bitcoin And I'm like I do 25:44 see that in the next 5 to 15 years people are going to realize that hey I 25:51 need to spend my bitcoin on things that I hold value to or I want to spend bitcoin on things that bring brings me 25:57 happiness right and travel is a big part of that It is definitely a privilege to 26:02 be able to travel but people will eventually want to spend their bitcoin on experiences So that's where kind of 26:08 that connection came of well okay why don't we create a marketplace that 26:14 allows travelers to easily find tour operators that understand what bitcoin 26:20 is accept bitcoin and just make that process a lot more seamless And I wanted 26:26 to take it a step further because I think it's also very important that we highlight a lot of these community 26:31 leaders that are doing so much work on the ground to actually help businesses adopt bitcoin to help education in their Gaps in BTC tourism infrastructure 26:39 communities in their cities And so we also showcase all of these leaders on 26:44 our marketplace So let's say if you were to go to Guatemala in Antigua there's 26:50 also this place called Lake Atitan which is a beautiful place It's like this beautiful lake surrounded by a bunch of 26:56 volcanoes It is literally like out of a movie It's It's beautiful Um and they 27:01 actually have a huge bitcoin community there called Lago bitcoin They have over 50 businesses that accept bitcoin which 27:08 is amazing So if you do go to Guatemala you can get in touch with the community leader there and he'll give you a tour 27:15 of that community for example So if you're going there to travel now you can do that as well So that's kind of the 27:21 idea was is like how do we connect people that are in the bitcoin space that are looking for these unique 27:27 experiences and then you have people that are providing these unique experiences We just have to bridge that 27:32 gap and connect them For for our uh listeners that are not necessarily in the bitcoin ecosystem can you share why 27:39 it was important for you to pay in bitcoin like why why were you trying to 27:45 pay in bitcoin that's a great question That is a great question I think I will say for us we I think two things right 27:52 because we do see it as money and if it's money then we need to be 27:59 comfortable with spending it we need to be comfortable with knowing that it has to create some sort of a circular 28:06 emotion for it to be money otherwise if it's just sitting you know somewhere it's it's just an investment it's just 28:12 an asset and two for us it was we want to get this good money into more hands 28:19 because only then can we create that ripple effect Cuz if we're all just holding on to our bitcoin and we're not 28:25 empowering these small businesses we're not empowering communities we're not empowering individuals how are they 28:31 going to get bitcoin because many of them don't have the privilege to just go and buy bitcoin Yes you can buy $1 worth 28:38 of bitcoin but even then for most of them the best way for them to get hands 28:44 like get bitcoin in their hands is through earning it And that's really what we wanted to do is kind of empower 28:50 that aspect of you know giving this good money or or just getting this good money into hands of more people and just 28:56 helping them like understand what it is And I don't want to seem like we're just like giving out free bitcoin No we 29:02 definitely were not We were still getting something back in return right it was just a payment method Um and many 29:08 times you know we've had people be like "You guys are crazy You guys are just spending your bitcoin." But but guys you 29:14 can spend your bitcoin and replace it right like if that's really your concern is that hey you don't want to let go of 29:20 your bitcoin Yes I understand You know spend your bitcoin you know pay with it Why spend bitcoin? 29:25 and then use fiat or whatever method you have and you can replace it if that's really your concern Um but that's kind 29:32 of a a different story So so you feel like bitcoin is good money and you want 29:38 others to be aware of and use good money Do you feel like your experience in Egypt was like man people are suffering 29:45 I want to do something about suffering like human suffering and money plays 29:50 such a deeply integral role into the suffering of these lives like how do we 29:56 provide good money yeah and and and it's like and how do we make it more 30:01 accessible and then just kind of going back to that point of you know I don't know depending on who our listeners are 30:07 and where they come from many times we'll be like okay well I I bought bitcoin but you have to remember most 30:12 people just don't have savings that they're sitting on where they're like I'll just I'll I'll just buy a little 30:18 bit of bitcoin today They can't do that right so it's like how do we make it easier for these people to actually earn 30:25 it because that's the only way they're going to get access to bitcoin and I think that was what was really motivating for us is like you know we're 30:31 helping them understand what bitcoin is We're helping them be curious about it We're helping them get hands on to 30:38 something that they never had before And you know hopefully like word of mouth is very strong right like you tell one 30:44 person about it one business owner about it they go tell their community and it will eventually create a ripple effect 30:51 So how do we get people earning bitcoin is that is that was that kind of your catalyst for creating this business 30:58 Travel with bitcoin yes I would say yes and no I think my catalyst really in the 31:03 beginning and and again it's a very new business guys Like I pretty much started it at the end of last year Like it's 31:10 slowly growing I've done a few events Tell us what it is Tell tell us our listeners what's going on with it Yeah 31:16 of course So my business is called Travel with bitcoin Very simple So it's 31:21 a marketplace where you're able to go and find tour operators around the world 31:26 Right now it's mostly Africa but eventually we want to make it so that in pretty much any part of the world that 31:32 you go if you want to experience something unique and you want to have a some sort of a tourism experience a 31:38 local experience a culture experience you'll be able to pay for that in bitcoin and get connected directly with 31:45 a tourism operator And I also want to emphasize that there are verified tour Connecting good money to real impact 31:50 operators These are individuals that understand bitcoin there's a backstory 31:55 of why they accept bitcoin and we're very transparent about that It's all listed on our website and it also helps 32:02 us just grow this community The more like-minded people that meet each other from different parts of the world we're 32:08 able to share that knowledge and that's really what this marketplace is about We also do events We've done two events so 32:16 far We normally do these events during bitcoin conferences because you'll find that at a conference A lot of people 32:24 from outside of the country will come to attend the conference and they'll naturally want to do something touristy 32:29 So we put together um like a day event or two days event where we plan everything and then you're pretty much 32:35 paying in bitcoin So you get to travel with bitcoin We also eventually want to get into corporate retreats and I think 32:41 that could be really really fascinating And again I think you're probably seeing a similar theme here It's all about 32:46 community and bringing communities together is is really the goal But Jason you kind of got me thinking about 32:53 something else as well as you know hopefully through this more of our tour operators are getting paid in bitcoin 32:59 right and so we are encouraging that bitcoin to be spent and getting that 33:05 good money into hands of more people So that of course is part of the vision here 33:14 I I think that's amazing That's incredible Congratulations And I love how you said that you're bridging that 33:19 gap between people who want to accept bitcoin or maybe don't know what bitcoin is and then people who have bitcoin and 33:26 want to spend it because it is a money like you were saying And this has been you know I feel like at the top of the 33:32 conversation recently with Jack Mers and his keynote speech last last week in at bitcoin Vegas the the hodler's dilemma 33:39 or there was Bitstein who gave his speech at big block bit boom of hodddle for good and there's this idea of you How the marketplace works 33:46 know a lot of people have really seen their purchasing power increase with bitcoin and once it gets to that point 33:53 you almost have to spend it because you're so I guess orange peeled that 33:58 it's all you hold So if it's if it's the only money that you hold then you have no other choice but to spend it And to make it easier to build out marketplaces 34:05 like you're doing then that just creates more avenues in order for that to happen And it transfers that value to somebody 34:12 who is uh who's providing something in return To your point you're not just giving it away you're getting a great 34:18 experience out of it And these this is this is like the thesis in in play This 34:23 is hyper bitcoinization happening because at the end of the day it's a travel agency business but using bitcoin 34:29 as a way to provide a better experience and a more like you know a a faster 34:35 experience and a like-minded experience and that's right So you can you have that initial 34:42 trust and and that community aspect of it is just so powerful because it's it is that bridge like you are you are 34:48 literally building that bridge and it's happening in real time And that makes me actually think about something really interesting is that in this bitcoin 34:55 ecosystem you know we really need to bring more diversity into it from both 35:01 like a products and services perspective And of course like we're seeing a lot of great wallets and like hardware wallets 35:07 and exchanges And of course we need that right but we have to remember that there 35:12 are just everyday people that just want to use this thing money for everyday 35:18 things And so you know as as a woman also like I I talk a lot about this too 35:23 is that we need a little bit more of that like feminine energy in here as well Like we need to be building this 35:28 ecosystem that allows everyone and anyone to kind of come and contribute in their own way whether it's like arts or 35:35 music of course travel you know gaming There there's just farming like there's 35:40 just so many untapped opportunities here And it's really about and and I and I 35:46 love that bitcoin is permissionless right so you don't have to fit into a mold to use bitcoin You don't have to be 35:53 super technical to accept bitcoin as a business owner As long as you're like open-minded and curious and just wanting 36:01 to learn what this is I think hopefully that provides more diversity in this 36:07 space because I I think we we really need that Medium of Exchange is sponsored by the 36:13 bitcoin Payments Advisor If you own or run a business and you'd like to accept bitcoin but don't know how the bitcoin 36:20 Payments Adviser can help From specific software recommendations and accounting bitcoin adoption: spending vs. holding 36:25 implications to training employees and marketing so your customers know you accept this new form of payment the 36:32 bitcoin Payments Adviser can help simplify your journey in accepting bitcoin for your business Check out 36:38 bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com and get 10% off when you pay in bitcoin 36:43 Again that's bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com Now let's get back to the show 100% 36:48 agree And I've been I've been personally coining this cycle as the bridge cycle myself because to your point we have all 36:54 the infrastructure in place The exchanges work the wallets work the point of sales work but then there's these you know intersections or 37:01 cross-pollination opportunities You know we've seen it a lot in the last few years over the health space and you know 37:06 the the intelligence food space and and and you know the shake your ranchers hand movement But then there are other 37:12 pieces too And what I love about bitcoin is everybody has such a unique and diverse background and we come from all 37:18 different walks of life and all different you know areas of thought But if you take something like travel and 37:24 then you apply bitcoin to it you're like "Oh that actually does make sense." Or for me like you know like yoga and meditation and proof of work in bitcoin 37:32 It makes sense And I think that's where when they say bitcoin will consume everything or when you know I say 37:39 following along the trend of we need more bitcoin podcasts we need more bitcoin businesses It's it's almost 37:44 reversing that idea of bitcoin won't consume everything but everything will consume bitcoin because we don't have a 37:50 choice Like we have to adopt it and those ideals are ultimately going to win out in the end So back to the chicken 37:55 and the egg problem It just it is it's here and it's not going anywhere And ultimately it it will lead to a better 38:02 more sustainable outcome but I'm I'm always bullish So I mean for now though 38:08 you still have merchant adoption like challenges like what what has been your biggest challenge Anua when you're you 38:14 go to these merchants these travel operators like you try and convince them to accept bitcoin How does that go so I 38:21 will say right now my focus is onboarding merchants that already accept bitcoin Jason I'm not at a point where I 38:27 am going and trying to convince tour operators I think that time will soon come because there's only a limited 38:34 amount of tour operators right now that are accepting bitcoin So what I will say is some of the challenges that we had 38:39 when we were traveling and trying trying to talk to business owners not just tour operators but just merchant adoption in 38:46 general I think a few challenges we we sort of touched on it already a little bit One is you know maybe they just 38:52 don't understand what it is Like that's the biggest barrier to entry But the other part really is okay well I do 38:59 understand it but no one's paying me in bitcoin so why does this really matter 39:04 and I think that is a really really big challenge And that again is not going to be solved right away That really depends 39:10 on you know how much people are spending over time The onus is on the bitcoiner The bridge cycle and product diversity 39:16 They have to actually use it Yes exactly Use your bitcoin And if you're really worried about not having your stack or 39:24 whatever you want to call it you can just replace it if that's really really what you're worried about But at the end of the day we got to spend bitcoin And 39:31 the third challenge shoot I had I was going to say something and now I forgot I forgot now But I would I'll say just 39:38 again kind of as we were traveling the other challenge we saw in merchant adoption was like yes we want this to be 39:44 this inclusive financial new system but we also have to remember that it's dependent on the internet and there are 39:50 a lot of people in this world that don't have access to the internet like almost 60% of Africa doesn't have internet so 39:57 now we're already excluding these individuals and again because there is that problem that exists in Africa there 40:03 are solutions like machinura I don't know if you guys have heard about them They're out of South Africa They're 40:09 creating a software which allows you to send and receive bitcoin using like a brick phone which is freaking amazing 40:17 And so there are these solutions that are coming out but there are quite a few hurdles as to why a merchant won't adopt 40:24 bitcoin or doesn't care to adopt bitcoin really And also it doesn't help whatever 40:29 they see on social media the news focuses so much on the exchange rate that they're constantly thinking about 40:35 how volatile it is you know and they're like well I'm not going to risk something on this volatile new money 40:42 where I have to pay my employees I have to pay my suppliers I have to convert it into fiat right away There are actually 40:48 a lot of barriers for merchants and they're all fair challenges and good 40:53 questions And so that kind of leads into my next question of what do you think is 40:58 that catalyst for that innovator's dilemma that we talked about Is it just more access to internet is it better 41:05 education or is there something that you see happening in in Africa and in places like with you know this kind of Merchant challenges and infrastructure 41:11 infrastructure need that could all of a sudden look like bitcoin catches fire and everybody's accepting it 41:18 that's like a loaded question because yeah I think like the the basic is 41:23 infrastructure right like yes okay once everyone has access to internet then it's like okay do you have enough money 41:28 for a smartphone or are you using the brick phone so like that that is from like that just fundamental level of just 41:34 like having access to something that then allows you access to bitcoin right i feel like what's really going to drive 41:41 more of that like how how bitcoin is going to catch on fire is I think I think when more like government related 41:49 officials or more of our more of the known international companies more of 41:55 those you know like big consulting firms like when they are coming out with a 42:01 positive view on bitcoin and I think that will drive a little bit of that trust in the everyday people because 42:08 otherwise they're going to have this fear of okay well what if it's going to be banned in a year what do I do what if 42:15 it's going to be illegal here what if the government tries to take it away from me again we know that's technically 42:21 not possible But if you don't understand bitcoin those are all concerns you're going to have And those are all concerns I had I'm not going to lie When we first 42:27 when I first started my journey I was like well what if it's illegal or what if Canada doesn't allow this or how am I going to sell like you just have all 42:34 these concerns which which are fair So I feel like until the right type of until 42:40 there is a positive kind of not spin but until there's a positive perspective on 42:46 bitcoin coming from you know someone kind of like a top down approach I don't 42:51 see bitcoin really being catching on fire because yes the three of us the four of us can do as much as we can but 42:57 at the end of the day it's just three of us right so that was kind of a bit of a of a messy answer there but I feel like 43:03 kind of No it makes total It makes total sense It makes total sense Like there is that there still is that aspect of all 43:11 of those concerns especially for nontechnical folks of really understanding what a bare asset and a 43:17 money that is programmable and decentralized and permissionless really unlocks because that's just not how like 43:24 I like like we were talking about this is outside of the system It's something entirely new It's not just a workaround 43:29 to get an access to a quote unquote better dollar but it's just it's a it's a literal better money I mean it does 43:35 help when we hear news like Square you know obviously enabling their customers to accept bitcoin That is huge So you 43:43 know I think there are there we we are getting there The fire is very small but like eventually eventually it'll catch 43:51 on fire So yeah Yeah Did you uh did you see that announcement Jack i don't think 43:56 we've talked about that at all So I have seen the announcement I was so busy in Vegas that I missed the announcement But 44:02 yes I did I did see I did see that I'm still catching up on all of the news over the last over the last few weeks What could spark rapid adoption? 44:08 just with everything that's happened But it does seem like Square has what so they they enabled merchants to both 44:15 accept bitcoin and convert payments which was already existing to bitcoin right yeah basically they you know 44:23 retail so many merchants that I talk to are like I I want to accept bitcoin 44:30 integrated into my point of sale system I don't want a separate iPad or you know and so this kind of solves that problem 44:36 for retail It's it's still a little bit of friction because I when I pay when I 44:43 went to the booth at the conference to pay in bitcoin at the Square POS they just automatically like you know default 44:50 it It's like tap here to to pay with your credit card And I was like "Oh no I want to pay with bitcoin." And then she 44:55 has to press the back button scroll down a little bit through like gift cards you know credit debit cash etc and then hit 45:01 bitcoin But then it just pops this amazing little QR code It's faster than Visa It just like boom instant And it 45:08 shows the number of sats the number of dollars And the crazy thing is that at 45:13 when I asked the person attending there at the booth they were under the impression that the merchant's going to have to set it up And so then I'm 45:20 thinking oh gosh there's so many merchants that just won't ever go through the hassle of setting it up But no according to Jack Dorsey on Twitter 45:27 it's going to be enabled by default So by 2026 merchants will by default be 45:32 have the ability to So basically if you know let's say I'm a customer I walk in order a coffee and you know bitcoiners 45:40 will have to pause their their muscle memory might be to pull out their credit card at least for me or tap to pay but 45:46 just pause remember hey no this is a Square terminal they're going to accept bitcoin like definitely you know when 45:51 it's enabled next year and so then he just pulls up a little lightning QR code and you just pay and it's it's pretty 45:58 cool it's pretty cool cool yeah and I think that brings up a good point is for 46:03 the listeners that are that do have bitcoin and they you know they want to spend their bitcoin Like don't be afraid 46:10 to ask when you get to a restaurant or a coffee shop if they accept bitcoin We probably stopped doing that a little bit 46:15 now but when we were first traveling we're so excited about this that we would like approach any business and be 46:21 like "Do you accept bitcoin do you know what it is?" Right and so don't be afraid to ask because you never know How 46:26 do you explain the value when No I I interrupt you a little bit there but you know when you're in the middle of that 46:31 conversation how do you explain the value of bitcoin to that merchant so I I learned this um I learned a lot of a lot 46:38 of these fundamental concepts from my husband for sure And so the one thing that I loved that he would do is you 46:44 have to you know meet them where they are right like we talk about that a lot but just meeting them where they are is so important because you approach a 46:51 business owner that's selling um I don't know snacks or something just just very 46:57 basic right um or just clothes apparel Let's say it's um you know a clothing store They make their own clothes 47:03 They're selling it Uh for them if you start talking about it's decentralized technology it's peer-to-peer Like 47:10 they're just going to blank out and they're like "I don't understand what you're saying." Like and there's a bit 47:15 of a language barrier too right you have to be careful of that So you're trying to simplify what it is but you have to kind of speak in their language and you 47:21 have to help them understand like okay what do you consider that's super valuable right so if they're an apparel 47:27 store they'll say well this silk fabric is super important to me and is really 47:33 valuable and and then and then STO would say something like okay well what if there's only you know 10 of these pieces 47:39 ever in the world how many would you want of this and you know naturally this person that holds a lot of value to the 47:46 silk fabric will be like I want at least three Some will say one some will say three some will say all So just helping 47:53 them understand just that concept of scarcity and you know then kind of 47:58 taking that and applying it to bitcoin Yes you know you still have to explain to them kind of history of money but 48:04 just kind of getting that concept across of like this is a very limited resource that's out there and then you go simple 48:10 into like supply and demand and kind of just like things start to like click in their heads and they're like "Oh wow 48:15 This is interesting." Um and you also don't want to overburden them with too much information because then you get 48:21 into the whole "Well this is SATs and what is SATS?" And like there's that whole you know it can be overwhelming So 48:27 you just want to leave it kind of very generic in the beginning Just get them to be curious but then leave them access 48:34 to something Whether it's a YouTube video whether it's you know follow this person on X whether it's follow me on X 48:41 you know this is my WhatsApp this is my like just give them something that they can follow up and see and try not to 48:48 overwhelm them in the beginning Listen to my podcast on the medium of exchange episode Exactly Listen to medium of 48:54 exchange Yeah But honestly that that analogy has worked really well cuz you can really relate it to what they think 49:00 is they find what is important That's really smart I like the idea of you know if you're on a one-on-one conversation 49:06 you just say like "Give me an example of something you really value." You know is it is it this thing and then it's very it's it provides a tangible relatable 49:14 element Sometimes I'll explain it as the cost of living I mean ultimately comes down to scarcity but the cost of living 49:21 you know how the cost of living goes up every year right you know the price of eggs is going up the price of gas is 49:26 going up Well the cost of living for those who are saving and using this 49:32 other form of money that isn't uh you know constantly devalued and printed 49:38 into infinity goes down every year And so what if your the cost of eggs went down every year or what if you know your 49:44 cost of living I mean it all goes back to scarcity really But I like your it does I like your idea better I think I 49:51 just love how we started with you talking about how your husband was literally holding a sign on the street saying ask me about bitcoin and then it 49:58 just transforms and almost full circle of to like okay what do you value well here's why bitcoin will help you value 50:03 that even more and it's like that that journey of you know when you go deep down the rabbit hole you want to share 50:10 you want to share how amazing like the difficulty adjustment and the solution to the Byzantine general's problem is 50:16 most people they need to they need to open that door themselves Right like you 50:21 just as people who are kind of spreading bitcoin adoption you just need to provide a look into the window or a step 50:28 into the door for then people to take their own journey and ultimately you get sucked into the rabbit hole They'll like 50:34 bitcoin will do its thing like it'll just keep it'll just keep producing blocks and it'll keep getting people 50:39 more and more more and more interested because of just how interesting it is It is and I think like two things I want to 50:46 say here is like you made a good point like you know kind of open that door for someone to get interested in bitcoin 50:51 because if you try to force your opinion or your view and your perspective on bitcoin it doesn't really resonate with Explaining bitcoin to small merchants 50:58 everyone else like it kind of clicks for everyone in a different way So just nurture them nurture them and help them 51:04 get there but let them make that decision and on their own Um and then the second thing I was going to say gosh 51:10 I keep losing my thoughts It'll come back That's a sign of good 51:15 conversation That's a sign of good conversation There's just so many so many ideas that are uh so much Yeah That 51:20 are sparking Yeah Nope I thought I had it It's gone I'll come back later It's all good So I I 51:27 have another question So we need we need more bitcoin bitcoin circular economies and you are kind of like in the trenches 51:34 working on building these What advice would you give to someone who wants to support or start a circular economy in 51:41 their hometown that is a great question I would say like I will kind of go back to that juicy bee example I gave because 51:48 when you identify a problem in your community you can use bitcoin as a tool to solve that problem So you know 51:55 whatever the industry that you're in whatever community you're in there's going to be some problems There's going 52:00 to be some challenges Now you want to solve that challenge for your community for your clients for your peers you know 52:07 how can you potentially use bitcoin as a tool to empower them even further because the more we're using bitcoin as 52:14 a tool to solve these challenges the more people will use it because we're actually solving a problem right so I 52:21 think that is a very interesting way of looking at a circular economy Um the 52:27 other thing would definitely be is making sure that you know sure a business can say they accept bitcoin but 52:34 are they up to speed with the education how comfortable are they feeling so if you're someone in the community that 52:40 understands bitcoin and you really want to spread that knowledge like you know have small meetups Don't don't be afraid 52:47 that okay no no one will show up Sometimes no one will show up but then sometimes one person shows up and then 52:52 it just you know gets bigger and bigger from there So holding local meetups 52:57 virtual meetups there is honestly endless amount of opportunities that you can do here if you truly want to spread 53:03 knowledge and education And I think that is really what's needed for a successful 53:08 circular economy is that these merchants need an opportunity to come together and ask questions and you know express their 53:16 fear express their concerns because this it's supposed to be a safe space and they should feel confident in what 53:23 they're doing Um so just creating that safe space for the circular economy is is very important And that actually 53:30 brings me to a good point because this is something I want to do with Travel with bitcoin and I haven't done yet But 53:35 the tour operators that I've listed and the um community leaders that I've listed eventually I want to come to a 53:43 stage where I'm able to get them together once a month you know where we talk about what's happening in the 53:49 community or we're sharing leads with each other We're sharing our learnings We're asking questions like I do really 53:55 want to get to that point Right now it's not there but that's kind of the ultimate vision is like how do we take 54:01 what someone is doing in a circular economy here in Peru in motive Peru to 54:07 something like bitcoin Ola in Batswana in Africa you know and how do we learn 54:13 from each other i love that ramble as you can tell No no no it's great I mean 54:18 I just want to I mean I'm not a merchant in Peru or Batswana but I just want to affirm you that I think that could be 54:26 really valuable to them for travelers who want to pay in bitcoin 54:32 for corporations Like I love your road map and I'm really pumped to see it come into fruition Thank you Thank you I 54:39 think I think it's always and and I know we didn't really touch on this and I know we're like at the top of the hour 54:44 here Jason but like just as just from like someone that used to work in corporate to then try to do something of 54:50 their own and I think both of you can definitely speak to this a lot more than I can because I think Jason you have 54:56 like seven businesses um is you know it's it's really tough 55:02 you know going from corporate where you have a structure you know exactly what your job role is it's defined for do you 55:09 have metrics that you have to hit to then trying to do something of your own 55:14 in a space that's fairly new You know bitcoin's only 15 years old We're also learning And so there's definitely a lot 55:21 of times where I'm like what am I even doing like is this helping is this making an impact like you know you don't 55:27 get you don't get that validation obviously cuz it's just you trying to do something So it's always just nice to 55:33 hear that this is fascinating that this is interesting and this does resonate So 55:38 it was a long way for me to say thank you for the for the feedback and any feedback is appreciated to any of the 55:44 listeners by the way So always always open No I I have sats and I like to travel and I think there's a lot of us 55:50 that that's the case and it's only growing It's only growing every day 55:56 Love it Where can we send folks to learn more about travel with bitcoin or yourself so you can definitely check out 56:02 our website travelwithbitcoin.com You can also find us on Twitter on X and 56:08 you can also find us on Instagram and all of the handles are travel with bitcoin It's a great brand It's amazing 56:13 Simple Thank you Yeah The first the first thing we did when we came up with the idea was I we got to go and get the 56:18 domain before anyone does That was my first purchase with bitcoin 56:24 The only thing more valuable than the SATs is the domain honestly Yeah I 56:30 agreed So I I actually have another question that this might not need to uh go in the podcast or not I don't really 56:36 care cuz I'm interested in hearing I'm interested in hearing your marketing strategy on Instagram Uh because we know 56:43 that bitcoiners are live on Twitter I don't have one Yeah Yeah Well no it's 56:49 not even that It's more I don't think it's I don't bitcoiner has not tapped into the Instagram game You know I have How to start a circular economy 56:55 my personal Instagram that I am kind of you know spreading some bitcoin education and and clips from this 57:02 podcast there but Instagram is very crypto-heavy and bitcoiners are in 57:07 general not on Instagram Whether it's because they don't like the Zuckerberg and Facebook or whatever it may be I 57:13 don't know but I found that really interesting So I'm curious your thoughts on growing a platform on Instagram and Twitter too But uh definitely definitely 57:20 the the Instagram piece especially cuz travel Instagram is a huge market and and I'm so glad that I'm so glad you 57:26 bring that up because I feel like I am like barely even existing existing on 57:31 Instagram from a travel with bitcoin perspective But like you said like I have my my personal Instagram I actually 57:37 have like a travel Instagram where I post a lot about our travels and like you know what we've done itineraries 57:42 what to do and tips and things like that And I literally was brainstorming with one of my ex-colleagues a few days ago cuz 57:49 I was talking to her about bitcoin and she was like "Oh this is so interesting." She's like "Why don't you 57:54 just make content on bitcoin on your travel Instagram?" And it got me thinking and I think I think I always 58:01 had this fear of like I don't know why I feel like I've heard horror stories of like people's Instagrams being 58:06 deactivated or like taken down or shut down if they're talking about crypto or 58:12 bitcoin but I'm like that's just it's not really that that true Like people are out there talking about it 58:17 constantly So I think the reason why we're not on Instagram is because 58:23 there's nothing to there's not much to consume like most of the bitcoin related stuff we want to consume and learn from 58:30 we just go to X because all the creators are there So I guess it's up to us to like just take that and and take it to a 58:37 different platform Yeah No I I definitely agree And as somebody who's in Gen Z and trying to get more Gen Z 58:43 people to be using and understanding bitcoin it's like you need to meet them 58:48 where they're at to build that bridge analogy again And they're all on Instagram they're all on TikTok 58:53 Personally I'm not really on TikTok so I don't know if there's any bitcoin Tik Tockers out there I don't imagine there 58:59 are And like even even like Joe does a lot of stuff on TikTok but you'll see 59:05 like the biggest following he has on X and just just because the people are are 59:10 not consuming that kind of content on TikTok But I think that will change I do think that will change So I think we 59:16 just have to start Um so I'm going to keep you accountable Jack and then you can keep me accountable Yes Sounds good 59:22 Sounds good Just just keep posting Just just spread the good word Yeah I'm just 59:27 curious right like cuz I had I had an interesting conversation with Satoshi about this yesterday cuz I'm like 59:33 whether you call it SATs Satoshi's or whether you call it bitcoins either way 59:39 guys to me it's very confusing like as if I put myself in the shoes of uh Vision for global BTC-powered tourism 59:45 someone that's new because if it's now called bitcoins so now they'll see something that that 59:52 will say like this is 10,000 bitcoins and they're going to be like holy that's 59:57 10,000 bitcoins like and then you have to be like no no no that's bitcoins 1:00:02 which is 100 million bitcoins in one bitcoin like that's confusing no I agree 1:00:08 so I have two parts of my answer one there's a concept that I learned recently called like bike shedding where 1:00:14 it's like basically you argue about the wrong thing so I think because bitcoin is just the news is so good right now um 1:00:22 dumb [ __ ] right finding things to argue about so that's one I don't really think it's important And to your point like I 1:00:30 didn't even really understand what a SAT was And personally I'm a SATS as a standard I have been in bitcoin since 1:00:36 2017 so I just kind of grew up with SATs being the standard but I didn't really 1:00:42 understand or think about SATs as like something of value until I was on like year four or five of my bitcoin journey 1:00:48 So like so I think that 1:00:54 timeline for people to actually understand what a you know Satoshi or a 1:00:59 fraction of a bitcoin is is really far down the road So that's step one or 1:01:05 answer number one Then the other side of that is ultimately as bitcoin scales and 1:01:11 more people get adopted to it and start to understand it that means that other 1:01:17 people will have influence on it So going back to the chicken and the egg problem I think whatever business 1:01:24 creates the greatest experience to onboard the next 100 million or 1 1:01:29 billion users of bitcoin it'll be that that like technology or whatever I think 1:01:36 we'll make that decision almost unil unilaterally Like obviously it'll have input from the community and and whatever but if you're Apple and you Where to find Anuja and Travel with bitcoin 1:01:43 have over a billion iPhones in the hands of people right now and they just Yeah Yeah just pushed a bitcoin wallet into 1:01:50 everybody's Apple wallet and they decided to use bits then like you can try to change it but good luck because 1:01:56 that's a big machine So it doesn't really matter Like I think if we have to 1:02:02 try to tell people that you know there's now I think the number was like 2.1 1:02:07 quadrillion bitcoin if you multiply 100 million times 21 million like that 1:02:13 that's to me that's fiat right because it's a number that's so large that you can't even comprehend it So that's why I 1:02:19 like 21 million cuz 21 million you're like "Oh that's a lot." But like it's not you know it's it's attainable 1:02:27 Yeah Quadrillion sounds fiat It sounds like "Oh quadrillion." Like what so 1:02:33 again it's a fun debate It's a very It gets very philosophical in terms of human nature but at the end of the day 1:02:39 like I said bitcoin's just going to tick tock another block It's just going to keep going bitcoin doesn't care what we call it It's true but I you made a 1:02:47 really good point It'll really depend on whoever is out there like you said like if it's Apple or some some some someone 1:02:53 big out there I mean we're kind of already seeing it cuz like with Square you know they've decided to go the Bits 1:02:59 route right so well we'll have to just see Square is 1:03:05 interesting because they they used a bitcoin like a B with with like a dollar 1:03:11 sign style B with the line through but then it's priced in Satoshi's Um and I 1:03:17 put a t-shirt that was $40 in the shopping cart and then it was uh I think 1:03:23 43,000 sats Um and I think sats make so much more sense than 0126 1:03:32 I mean there's nope Yeah we're going to be pricing houses maybe in bitcoin but not retail transactions That needs to be 1:03:38 in sats Exactly Yeah And I think for me it just made sense when I was trying to 1:03:45 learn about it because you have the dollar and cents right cent is completely different from dollar Like if 1:03:51 you think about the the naming the names of it So just like that you know you have sats which is very different from 1:03:58 bitcoin but it's like the dollar and cents But hey like you said Jack it's 1:04:03 things are going so well that we're just arguing about stuff that doesn't really matter 1:04:09 Unit bias is very real I mean I think bitcoin should be the protocol and SATS should be the currency really like for 1:04:15 for regular people who are making purchases and selling goods and services 1:04:21 Yeah But it all starts with just getting it in the hands of people Like honestly the that rewards program and uh I don't 1:04:28 know if you're familiar with Oshi rewards and Michael Atwood who's here in Austin We talked to him on our pod a few 1:04:34 weeks ago and he's doing something similar where he's giving SATs back and helping businesses kind of start bitcoin 1:04:39 loyalty rewards Um Oh the way that you were able to like use such a traditional 1:04:45 system and then get it into the hands of students is awesome And that's the the that's literally the 1:04:52 in my opinion the hardest problem like to to solve in bitcoin is how do we get people to want to download an app on 1:04:59 their phone cuz like people are so willing to like connect to Stripe or whatever but then when you're like oh you need to download this app they're 1:05:05 like no no I don't I don't want to download an app like all that stuff and I'm just like you you don't why I'm like 1:05:12 why I'm offering to give you money I'm offering to send you money literally And 1:05:17 it's not even like I'm sending you a link to download it No like I'm not sending you a malicious link or anything 1:05:22 It's just from your app store You're downloading an app Well we already download fiat apps all the time We have 1:05:28 Venmo and Cash App uh banking apps all kinds of fiat apps Well I guess I'm just 1:05:34 genuinely curious Jack said since you said you're sort of in the Gen Z space more like how do Gen Z's feel about 1:05:41 bitcoin like what is the perception 1:05:47 that is a great question It's something that I'm that I've done a lot of thinking about but still have more 1:05:53 thinking to do Our generation is in a very cognitively dissonant state 1:05:59 where we know it's broken but we don't necessarily know why We know that we're being lied to but we don't necessarily 1:06:04 know how to find the truth Uh and there are countless of examples of that throughout you know my entire existence 1:06:10 uh on this planet Um I think that mixed 1:06:15 with apathy has created a like okay I'm just going to stay on the hamster wheel because this is what I've been told I 1:06:20 need to do in order to succeed I was working uh I was working at Deote before I took the leap into into bitcoin about 1:06:27 two months ago Um so I totally totally get it Um but when you see things 1:06:34 through a lens of bitcoin and how broken the system is then you're like "Oh it doesn't have to be this way It doesn't." 1:06:40 So that's going back to like the the Instagram and marketing question I think 1:06:46 a lot of it has to do with like how can you grasp people's attention in a real way and an and in an authentic way Um 1:06:54 because then they'll reach out to you and take and take it upon themselves because ultimately it's it's your 1:07:00 decision You could lead them to the door but they have to kick it open and go down and go down and check out the basement which leads to the rabbit hole 1:07:06 Um but yeah I don't know I I I think we need more Gen Z bitcoiners I'm trying to 1:07:11 get as many Gen Z bitcoiners as possible I I'm I'm in the stage of they laugh at you So it's like first they ignore you 1:07:18 then they laugh at you Eventually they'll fight me but you know hope I mean bitcoin will win I don't know if 1:07:24 I'll win personally but bitcoin will win So that's the goal That's that's interesting because I always found Gen 1:07:30 Z's were a lot more like at least if I compare them to like millennials like they weren't afraid to question things 1:07:38 you know like they were questioning a lot of like the people that like the corporations that they work for the type 1:07:44 of um initiatives you know their leaders are taking like they were very bold and 1:07:49 questioning a lot of that and I see a lot of that on TikTok right so I think that was making me feel good about kind 1:07:55 of like the the stance that Jenz is taking But I also understand a lot of them are like well I'm comfortable in 1:08:01 this fiat job Like why the hell am I going to leave this and and to your 1:08:07 point that's where the cognitive dissonance comes in because we know to ask the questions but then it's okay how do you actually find a solution and and 1:08:14 often times taking that step of you know setting up a a DCA every week or month 1:08:19 or day or whatever your your timeline is into bitcoin that's hard And it it's not that it's 1:08:25 hard but it it's like there's a mental barrier right so like it requires action 1:08:30 and we live in such a world of inaction where people just will they'll just keep 1:08:36 going about their day And you know I've had friends literally say to me as bitcoin's hitting alltime highs Jack 1:08:43 stop talking about this We're really happy for you but just leave Like stop And I'm like I'm like I'm not bragging 1:08:49 I'm like I'm not bragging about this I'm trying to bring you guys with me and you know some some will some will take it 1:08:57 and they'll hit me up and I'll on board them like I'm I'm like I will be your 1:09:03 friend But then I'm also realizing that it's not just oh you're going to get 1:09:08 rich and you're going to you know a 1000x or whatever Maybe that'll happen I don't know But at the end of the day 1:09:14 it's a better savings technology So if you want to buy a car if you want to buy a house if you want to start a family then like you need to have a good 1:09:21 savings vehicle that's not just the S&P 500 where that's totally you know 1:09:29 dependent on like four or five or I guess seven businesses The one thing that we didn't now now the thing that I 1:09:34 wanted to say actually came back was um and sorry Jason thank you for hitting recording 1:09:39 Nobody Yeah Yeah We're We're going to put this in like for context listeners we are uh we're 1:09:46 riffing and after stopping hit re-record So so one interesting thing about Okay 1:09:54 one of the most interesting things I think about learning about bitcoin is obviously you learn about this new money 1:10:00 and this technology but you also learn so many concepts that are tied to 1:10:06 bitcoin right though we didn't really touch on this a lot but the high time versus low time preference Like we live 1:10:12 in a world that is constant high time preference Like people want to see results now You know it's like do this 1:10:19 for one week and you'll get abs you know post one reel a day for 30 days you will 1:10:25 get 10,000 follow like we're just constantly looking for shortcuts and ways to like get things done in a low 1:10:32 amount of time where I think what bitcoin has really taught me is just like low time preference And that 1:10:39 concept and idea applies to so many things in your life you know like your 1:10:44 physical health your mental health your relationships your creativity your you 1:10:50 know whatever you're building as an entrepreneur like everything takes time And it just kind of teaches you to like 1:10:58 leave this mindset of constantly trying to get things done or try or having 1:11:04 expectations of getting things quickly Um but yeah that that was one of the 1:11:11 things I did Could not agree more No could not agree more And I think back to 1:11:16 even what you were saying of like being an entrepreneur right and I'm learning this myself in real time too and very 1:11:22 new to it But when you're in these corporate type roles or when you're back 1:11:27 in school you have all this structure and like you take a test you get a grade and you know what you got wrong and it's 1:11:34 it's all these types of things And you know one of the things that I've learned to really love about fitness is you can 1:11:40 very easily track your fitness You could say I was lifting this much last week now I'm lifting this much more or I ran 1:11:46 a mile this fast and the next one I ran even faster slower and you could start to measure it and if you can measure it 1:11:52 then you can manage it Business more or less is harder because you don't always 1:11:57 see that growth and it doesn't come in like a necessarily consistent way like 1:12:03 you know there are some businesses that have Yeah And it's definitely not linear right so when you have a lower time 1:12:10 preference then you have more of a appetite to stomach some of those um 1:12:15 those hardships or those confusing times or complexities And bitcoin because it's going up in purchasing power it at least 1:12:22 alleviates some of that in some instances Um but it also just opens your eyes to I 1:12:29 can actually think through this I can question it I can try to solve it And that's what's that's what's been you 1:12:34 know really cool and bringing it to other areas seeing traveling for as you 1:12:41 know like when you can get connected with a really good tour guide who understands the history and the culture of where you're going and like I'm sure 1:12:47 when you were on some of your safaris like you heard some insane stories and saw some crazy incredible things Yeah 1:12:53 Yeah And if you could just have bitcoin as the the connector for that then that's what I mean when I say it's better business because it's not just 1:13:00 some fiat you know like tour tour guide who's just like taking you in showing 1:13:05 you oh there's that thing No it's like this person actually cares He grew up in this environment Uh and he's and he he's 1:13:13 bought in Um and bitcoin is just the vehicle to to make that connection And and that is such a good point because if 1:13:20 we look at the tourism business and especially after co it has faced faced 1:13:26 exponential growth which which is good for a lot of the countries that you know one of their biggest source of income is 1:13:32 tourism but a lot of times the the backbone of the tourism industry So it's 1:13:39 like your your local tour guides or you know the person that's actually making the handcrafted souvenirs or the farmer 1:13:46 who owns the coffee farm of the coffee tour you're going on A lot of them you know they're not getting money directly 1:13:53 from their clients They are going through these third party agencies and we don't know how much of the margins 1:13:58 are being taken away from them We don't know when they even get paid out Do they get it monthly do they get it quarterly 1:14:05 like are they getting that money when they need it whereas I'm trying to kind of eliminate that third party and go 1:14:11 directly to these local tourism businesses So now you're empowering them 1:14:17 You're giving them money directly in their hands It's instant and you know where your money is going Um so that 1:14:24 actually is another really really good point about kind of just the tourism industry in general And thanks to social 1:14:29 media like everyone talks about here's a hidden gem and here's a hidden gem There's no hidden gems left at this 1:14:35 point But um so you know trying but you can be a conscious tourist basically 1:14:41 like exactly conscious tourism Exactly And you know how do you support local 1:14:47 um the local communities and the local tourism So yeah I mean I read I listened to a book Some 1:14:56 people are sticklers about whether you say he read or listened but I listened to a audio book called Lion Tracker's 1:15:01 Guide uh to the universe I believe Okay No Lion Tracker's Guide to Life Um and 1:15:06 it was about like this guy in the African brush and talking about all the parallels of tracking lines and he was a 1:15:12 life coach and just connecting those And the whole time I was like "Oh bitcoin is so like this guy needs to this guy needs 1:15:19 to learn about bitcoin and just integrate it into his business." Like "Oh that's awesome." But um but that's 1:15:26 hearing him like describe what it's like to you know wake up at dawn and go uh 1:15:31 and go track the lions and and all that type of stuff was so interesting Uh because it's it's an entirely different 1:15:38 world than I'm used to I'm used to waking up and being like "Oh damn my ACU didn't didn't pump as cold as I would 1:15:44 have liked it to last night So it's that's why personally I love traveling too cuz I love uh exploring cultures 1:15:50 like that Um and just opening your eyes to it because if you don't then you'll never see it Getting out of our bubble a 1:15:57 little bit which is we all need that once in a while So yeah Cool 1:16:03 Well should we should we call it round two 1:16:10 I love I love how we just like started jibber jabbering and Yeah I I just hit 1:16:16 record Figured why not yeah Pass it in 1:16:21 Yeah [Music]