0:00 i think that's where we're ultimately going with this and I think tying a lot of personal motivation and goals to 0:06 ultimately getting more sats stacking more sats and sharing uh with others and creating circular economy and healthcare 0:13 which is how can I you know as bitcoin continues to appreciate uh in purchasing power year-over-year there are certain 0:20 things in our life that we know we're going to have to spend on and I think health and healthcare expense is 0:26 certainly one of those So bitcoin offers that alternative payment rail that's 0:31 always available for you in this peer-to-peer model I think that's super important And another is saving in 0:38 bitcoin and having that treasury perspective bitcoin from a treasury 0:45 perspective continue to grow I think there there is a price that everybody's going to have on selling bitcoin people that bought 10-15 years ago have had a 0:52 price and they might be selling now around 100k and then other people buying in this decade are going to have a 0:57 different price and as bitcoin's natural volatility in dollar terms smooths out 1:03 as it continues to appreciate and you're naturally going to it's going to be a lot easier to use in commerce 1:12 day-to-day So Jon Gordon thanks for joining us today on the Medium of Exchange podcast really excited to dive 1:18 into your background what you're working on uh the integration of how I view bitcoin and wellness and really how you 1:25 are moving the space forward and helping um healthcare providers and wellness companies get on and move towards a 1:31 bitcoin standard Uh so really just to start us off would love to hear about your background how you got into bitcoin 1:38 um and kind of what you're working on in terms of uh pushing forward bitcoin adoption Yeah absolutely Thanks Jack and Background in Healthcare & bitcoin Awakening 1:45 Jason for having me on Really excited to chat about bitcoin especially as a 1:51 medium of exchange So love love the name of the podcast and I think as we're moving into the medium exchange phase we 1:57 really see bitcoin come to life Um and as it was originally intended as a 2:02 digital peer-to-peer cash system Uh and my my background is in the healthcare industry uh started out consulting for 2:10 hospitals and health systems and then moved into insurance role in Medicaid over into product 2:17 management launching an innovative product in the hospital space and an operating room and really after as I was 2:25 completing a double masters in health economics and policy in in 2020 and the pandemic hit we didn't need to be in 2:31 person in the office anymore uh where I was working outside Chicago definitely 2:36 started to just change my world views and see what was happening getting married and just asking the question 2:43 what is money um and so I I started my bitcoin journey really in in 2020 and 2:49 2021 going pretty hard and fast down the rabbit hole reading as many books as I could get my hands on listening to 2:56 podcasts and and eventually going to the adopting bitcoin conference in El Salvador in 2021 November shortly after 3:03 they made bitcoin legal tender and and after interacting with a lot of the 3:09 builders in the bitcoin space there and just experiencing bitcoin for myself realized this is really where my passion 3:16 is and where I wanted what I wanted to be working on and following that conference I noticed you know no one was 3:22 talking about bitcoin and healthcare and for me is working in the space of an industry that is 20% of the US 3:30 GDP and almost5 trillion dollar a year in spend where a quarter of that's 3:36 administrative and half of that is waste There's just such a huge opportunity for 3:41 bitcoin to come into the space And so really excited to and at that point left 3:50 the corporate job did some traveling with my wife did a yoga teacher training in Bali Uh and while we were locked up 3:57 in a hotel room quarantining because of COVID in in Jakarta I was writing down 4:02 all the ideas and things I had on how I thought bitcoin could come into healthcare and integrate And so been 4:10 fortunate to be able to work on a lot of those ideas and have that come to life over the last few years um starting out 4:16 with working at at Crowdel as an alternative to health insurance uh with a strong bitcoin angle there and then 4:23 realizing hey where are the docs who are going to be accepting bitcoin there is 4:29 really strong centralization forces in healthcare that have made it difficult for independent providers to continue to 4:35 grow their business And so I thought hey bitcoin is the perfect solution that can be integrated into many business models 4:42 in healthcare that are springing up uh like direct primary care for example is one or direct specialty care surg 4:49 surgical centers that list their prices transparently and you know actually what 4:55 you're buying What a concept In healthcare everything is hidden behind thirdparty payers and only about 10% of 5:01 our spend today is out-of- pocket or direct pay Everything else is coming from third parties whether it's the 5:07 government or thirdparty insurance companies So I started Satoshi Health 5:12 Advisors a couple years ago really with the goal of helping healthcare businesses integrate a bitcoin strategy 5:19 and starting all the way from understanding bitcoin but even first 5:24 understanding what is money here's the fiat system here's how bitcoin and Lightning works starting there and 5:30 distilling a lot of the lessons that I've learned in my own uh research presenting different options 5:36 for integrating payments depending on their business models Is it in person is it online 5:42 e-commerce who are their customers saving in through by accepting bitcoin payments is one So obviously 5:48 there's a huge philosophical element to it of adopting sound money but it makes sense from a business perspective 5:54 because Stripe is charging 3% and with bitcoin and Lightning the fees now onus 5:59 is on the user really and you can lower your fees to zero to 1% depending on you know who you're using to process 6:05 payments and how sovereign you want to be in running your own node of course is is an option saving in bitcoin so 6:12 treasury strategy understanding the different options that are out there and then ultimately 6:17 marketing to bitcoiners and being able to grow your business and reach a growing niche of consumers 6:24 that are looking to earn bitcoin rewards andor spend bitcoin and support 6:30 businesses that are on a bitcoin standard Uh and so I've been been able to work with a few different businesses 6:36 in the space both on the provider side different wellness brands that are more e-commerce-based and then even other uh 6:44 businesses that aren't as health related such as even ebikes or more recently architect uh who's got some exciting 6:51 offerings coming out too And so I think with bitcoin into health there's just so 6:59 much potential Um and then with Nostra coming into the equation as well uh it's something I've been focused on uh 7:05 through a company I co-founded called Nost Fabrica which is focused on 7:11 integrating using Noster for healthcare use cases and as well as bitcoin as 7:16 money We see a lot of hype around blockchain for healthcare over the years Oh we need a token for this and that And 7:22 we're seeing is that none of that really caught hold And I think the reason is because we only need one blockchain and 7:28 the best use cases for decentralized money that everybody's hooked up on that ledger Um but we can utilize 7:35 Nosters's uh public private key cryptography and for identity management uh and ultimately hopefully break down 7:42 more of the silos that exist in healthcare more interoperability and 7:47 ultimately sovereignty for people to take personal responsibility for their health Jon how does can you can you 7:53 loop me in on the Nostra tiein with Nos Fabrica because I think of Nostra more as like a social media platform bitcoin, Nostr & Social Health Future 8:01 Yeah So a lot of the use cases right now in Noster are certainly social media 8:07 kind of Twitter X clones in a way Um but if you think about uh what Nasser is 8:12 notes and other stuff transmitted by relay you can think about health data being some of that other stuff uh and 8:18 there are international standards for healthcare data called fire or HL7 that 8:24 we can wrap in Nostra events and now all of a sudden if you're using this data structure which are as just JSON notes 8:32 simple data that you're packaging back and forth we can do it in a way that's encrypted and that you have control 8:40 ultimately over your own health records which doesn't really exist in in the system today So it's still very early 8:45 days It's pretty experimental Uh we have an ongoing challenge with 14 million Satoshi bounty and reward pool that's 8:52 out there and uh we're about halfway through now and some really interesting apps and use cases and people building 8:58 open source tooling in the space Uh but if you think about health it's it's social right health is very social You 9:04 have your family members your other loved ones people who are along the ride through your own health journey whatever 9:10 is ailing you or you want to improve um you know there are certain aspects of 9:16 health that you'll want to share and and we can utilize Nosters's uh web of trust 9:22 and also social networking tools I think in this health context Um and so it's 9:28 it's been really interesting to work on And then as open networks grow just as 9:34 anyone working on bitcoin and the bitcoin network and accepting bitcoin is now a part of this network we we see 9:39 Noster in a similar light from a data and communication and identity uh 9:44 perspective So that's kind of the the Noster tiein now and and I think eventually it'll there and there's some 9:51 other uh work and and other business that I'm excited to share uh coming up 9:57 soon um that will also be at this intersection of bitcoin health and noster and I think tying a lot of 10:04 uh personal motivation and goals to 10:10 ultimately getting more sats stacking more sats and sharing uh with others and creating circular economy in 10:16 healthcare I think that's where we're ultimely imately going with this which is how can I you know as bitcoin continues to appreciate uh in purchasing 10:24 power year-over-year there are certain things in our life that we know we're going to have to spend on and I think 10:30 health and healthcare expense is certainly one of those 10:35 Yeah And I think one of the things that you're helping highlight that most people don't even realize is that we 10:41 don't own our data just like bitcoiners realize we don't own our money And you know I was doing some research before 10:47 this on on uh a company that I'm sure you're pretty familiar with is Epic uh 10:52 that hosts like almost half of the um electronic medical records in the United 10:58 States alone Uh and that ties into this question of you mentioned waste and just 11:06 I have some experience consulting in the healthcare industry as well and understanding like the complexity um you 11:12 know revenue cycles for example are processes that are so drawn out and it 11:19 can actually take like months for these hospitals and doctors to get paid the for their services Uh so can you just 11:26 explain a little bit about how you're using the idea of bitcoin and really just simplifying down how these doctors 11:34 uh can one take control of their data back to the back to what you mentioned on Auster but then more importantly uh 11:40 or just as importantly uh take control of their money with bitcoin 11:45 Yeah absolutely You highlighted a big piece of what's broken in the current health care system which is that revenue 11:52 cycle And typically health systems and anyone being paid by a third party is 11:58 not actually collecting that revenue for two to three months after they provide that service Um and they're only 12:04 collecting about nine cents on the dollar for all the debt that they're chasing And we have significant hundreds 12:10 of thousands of people going bankrupt every year from medical expenses So as it really affects the individual it also 12:17 really impacts the business and the business model around payments and today 12:22 about 6 to 10% of every healthcare transaction goes to a middleman So very 12:28 significant and even more than retail credit card fees is baked into those electronic medical record costs the 12:34 billing processing and that creates a major strain on on that revenue cycle 12:41 management for what are typically pretty low margin businesses Some of the bigger 12:47 health systems certainly now are sitting on a lot of cash They have s you know high revenues but also very significant 12:53 fixed costs And I think bitcoin can plug into any organization in the healthcare 13:00 space But where we're seeing more movement and where I've had success introducing bitcoin is to more 13:05 independent practitioners that have the autonomy to move quickly 13:11 and introduce and just offer bitcoin as a payment option And one of the best 13:16 solutions that I love in introducing is Zapright Uh local Austin company and 13:22 really taking a a nice approach I think to enabling businesses to have both 13:28 point of all point of sale payment links and invoices And so particularly for DPC 13:34 or concierge medicine it's a monthly or bianual or annual membership fee and 13:40 they're collecting that directly from the patient And now you actually as a doctor have significantly more time to 13:47 spend with that patient because you're getting paid directly instead of getting scrapes on a fee of service model You're 13:54 and only being able to spend on average seven minutes with your patient every year You and and maybe having 1500 2,000 14:02 patients in your panel You can afford to run a business with three four 500 patients and or members that you're 14:09 providing really excellent care to And bitcoin aligns perfectly with that value for value exchange because now you're 14:15 paying directly you're lowering that transaction fee from six to 10% potentially for the bigger businesses in 14:22 the healthcare space all the way towards zero So that's significant savings on the bottom line to to an organization 14:29 and you're being transparent on your pricing and you're not reliant on any third parties And so all this you know 14:35 as I as I speak to it I think echoes bitcoin's principles because there's no 14:41 middleman There's no bank that you need It's peer-to-peer cash that you can 14:46 use Whether it's bitcoin on the layer one on the main chain for bigger transactions or lightning for microp 14:53 payments it even opens up a whole host of new use cases in in the health space 14:58 And so just getting set up with the right the bitcoin wallet understanding hey how am I going to accept Lightning 15:05 Payments is it going to be custodial service like a strike or do I need can I 15:11 set up my own node via service like Albby LB hub you know there's amazing tools that are out there And so where I 15:18 feel fortunate too and and just why it's so fun to be building on bitcoin is 15:23 because you don't have to build it all yourself It's it's an open network and you know you need to kind of understand 15:30 and have a sense of how the technologies work and integrate together and what are the trade-offs of different solutions Uh 15:36 but as we get into this point now even you know few years into me doing this work there's the tools just keep getting 15:42 better and because it's still a small relatively smaller ecosystem they're very responsive on feedback So as I've 15:49 had different needs for my healthcare clients and the functionality or feature 15:54 set within a payment tool um typically companies are especially Zapright I I'll 16:00 call out are very responsive in adding that additional functionality which 16:06 especially in the legacy healthcare space you're you're not going to get right like good luck going to try and 16:11 convince Epic uh you know or United Healthcare for example to accept uh 16:17 bitcoin payment It's just it's not going to happen right and even some of the tools in that are supporting more 16:24 independent businesses in healthcare are also still you know not interested in in bitcoin So that's where I've been trying 16:30 to have a some master classes and doing some free education as much as I can to 16:36 help people understand in uh particularly health professionals in bitcoin And usually it clicks 16:43 uh and they see it but then it's okay gets into how am I going to do this you know how manual is this process versus 16:49 some of my automated systems Um but ultimately I think it can help them 16:54 strengthen their their practice So got a couple you case studies happy to speak to if you guys are interested to to kind 17:00 of paint a picture a bit further But that's how I'm seeing really bitcoin address some of 17:05 that waste and and inefficiency But ultimately it's fraud right there's a lot of fraud waste and abuse in 17:11 healthcare particularly when it comes to billing government uh for your services So anyone taking care of Medicare over 17:18 65 plus or Medicaid low income there's just such crazy things going on that 17:25 hopefully now with the reorganization around HHS and CMS I think are going to be coming down the 17:31 pipeline because it having seen it from the inside it's it's definitely scary and and unfortunate And so I believe in 17:38 more free market solutions fixing a lot of this and being able to you know and while there is some value in still 17:44 having a government safety net it's ballooned to the point that you know there shouldn't be there's 85 million people on Medicaid 17:52 I mean and it's just not sustainable And from a state perspective the way it's administered in different states 17:59 is very challenging So and then there's hacks all the time on the data side You 18:04 mentioned how there's centralization on on that point whether it's epic but ultimately last year ultimately last 18:10 year one out of every three Americans helped their data was hacked and at some point people might just say I don't care 18:15 whatever people get it but other you know we should care about our privacy that data is very intimate it's important and that's where I think 18:21 master can come into yeah and I mean even to add on that in 18:26 the news recently uh there was the 23 and me bankruptcy so like that actually kind of gave me a little bit of hope 18:32 where everybody was like wait they're just going to able to sell this and people at least asking that question of 18:37 I don't know how many millions of Americans data they have Uh but that's potentially going to the highest bidder 18:44 which it just seems kind of wrong So if that does happen then hopefully it'll be a switch where people are like we need 18:50 to take that back on uh and own our data and if it doesn't happen then you know it it should establish a little bit more 18:57 trust in the system of how they actually end up uh you know kind of getting rid of that all of that uh all of that data 19:06 Yeah And they had sold over 12 million kits almost 15 million individuals data now that yeah is available as you said 19:13 to the highest biders So that should definitely scare some people but thankfully I I didn't do that service 19:20 but uh many have and it happens and it's 19:25 you know we'll see what can be used out of that data at some point but hopefully we're shifting and where we've hit maybe 19:32 peak centralization and now we're moving along into the decentralization framework especially if anybody if you 19:38 guys have read the sovereign individual that was a big piece of my my own journey seeing reading a book that was 19:44 written in 1997 but telling the story of hundreds of years of centralization and decentralization cycles and foreseening 19:51 a lot of the the digital nomad world that we're living in now but also power 19:57 that it brings to the individual Um but it's going to take some time to unwind a 20:02 lot of the centralized and kind of convenience and ease that's been created 20:07 through our current experience on online Yeah I'm I'm fascinated with your work 20:14 that you're doing there with Noster and really excited to see what what shakes out as you guys build that That's a 20:20 really important um project that you guys are working on Uh one question I have for you Jon just zooming out a 20:27 little bit It sounds like you you know independent practitioners have kind of really taken um to your work and you 20:35 touched on you know data revenue cycle like let's say I'm an independent practitioner or or just a healthc care 20:41 practice of some sort Why should why is bitcoin important for me like beyond 20:48 those things just like more broad level yeah I think first and foremost it's bitcoin as a Lifeline 20:54 creating a a redundant payment rail and having another way to receive payments is super important We saw during COVID 21:00 for certain ways that providers were practicing they may have had their bank accounts many did have their bank 21:06 accounts canled Uh so if you're used to accepting fiat via traditional means all of a sudden your business comes to a 21:12 halt How am I going to keep my business running so bitcoin offers that alternative payment rail that's always 21:20 available for you in this peer-to-peer model I think that's super 21:25 important And another is saving in bitcoin and having that treasury 21:31 perspective uh bitcoin from a treasury perspective continue to grow So a lot of these independent businesses of course it's a 21:38 pass through personally but they may have left the bigger system that had a cushier paycheck and they just kind of 21:44 had to check the boxes from doctor salary perspective And all of a sudden the doctor is an entrepreneur They're 21:49 running a business They're having their revenue but also their costs and they want to focus on delivering the best 21:55 care that they can They don't necessarily want to get too in the weeds on on the operations So that's where I've come in and and provided some 22:02 support to different practices that are out there And specifically from you know the bitcoin adoption perspective it's 22:09 it's sending a signal to your local community in your market You're probably going to be the first one to really to 22:15 be doing it And it I think it helps particularly in markets that have higher concentrations of 22:21 bitcoiners such as Texas as one example right and in Austin where I had my first client and then another in San Antonio 22:28 Dr Roger Mosmba who is a really interesting case study because he was the first doctor at Teldoc 20 plus years 22:35 ago which started the movement into tele medicine he now has his own practice and 22:41 saw the value in in bitcoin and needed some support in just getting stood up understanding bitcoin helping educate 22:47 some of his team members as well And so now he's accepting bitcoin And while it might take time to continue to build up 22:54 and see if they what percent of people are actually going to pay in bitcoin it's going to be pretty low to start out 23:00 But I think that number will continue to grow as bitcoiners in those areas see oh here's a practitioner that gets it he's 23:07 done the work proof of work to put in a bitcoin option and I feel comfortable in 23:14 establishing reestablishing that patient physician relationship because that's something too that's been stripped out of the current system where a doctor 23:21 used to take care of a whole town and really build those relationships and get to know someone on a deeper level 23:26 understand the lifestyle and the health uh of of those people and versus now 23:33 where again you don't have a lot of time as a doctor to spend with your patient and it's really you're spending in front 23:38 of the screen checking all the boxes in Epic and now you don't really know when something really is off You don't have 23:45 someone that you can just call And so that's that's where I see bitcoin really fitting in Uh another client of mine Dr 23:52 uh Victor Levitan over my hometown uh in Illinois he's also adopted bitcoin now 24:00 and integrated it And while most of his patients are Medicare age they probably won't be paying in bitcoin a lot of them 24:05 are still paying in checks right it's old school Um uh over time I think as the clientele 24:12 you know grows you'll be able to attract some younger patients as well and say "Okay oh this doc's accepting bitcoin." 24:20 For those doctors that aren't necessarily accepting a lot of payments 24:25 then is the conversation steer a little bit more towards the store value use case are they are they also um saving in 24:32 bitcoin yeah generally they're saving in bitcoin too And you know I think once you 24:38 realize that bitcoin is the best form of money the most efficient way to get it is actually accepting it directly for your services rather than having to use 24:46 even the 1% fiat exchange So some of my clients certainly then as they're going down their own bitcoin journey say take 24:52 some other personal funds that they have or some of the business funds and just convert it into bitcoin establish a 24:58 treasury is is definitely one step Um but because the percent of payments in 25:03 bitcoin is going to be lower most of them can afford to just hold that in bitcoin right they're not going to need 25:08 to liquidate it for any fiat expenses And I think that's an important consideration for the business too Or 25:15 even if you do need to convert back into cash great Um you know you can you can do that But even better would be going 25:22 up the supply chain as well and saying "Okay will will this supplier accept bitcoin?" and that will create more 25:29 circular economies in bitcoin But ultimately I subscribe to Parker Lewis's pay me in bitcoin theory And really it's 25:36 the merchants that are going to send the signal and say "Hey I want you to pay me in bitcoin Here are the reasons why." 25:41 And then also attaching an incentive to it So for my clients that I have on on the consulting side I generally have 25:48 here's my price still using dollars as unit of account but saying here's the price in bitcoin and then if you want to 25:55 pay me in fiat it's a 10% premium uh and whether that's a or credit card which 26:02 does take account you know that 3% fee that I would have been taking a hit as a merchant and then that's enough of an 26:09 incentive too to get my clients thinking okay I'm going to figure out now how do I get bitcoin and how do I pay you in 26:15 bitcoin because that's the same thing that their customers are going to have to do and so it puts them in kind of 26:20 their customer's shoe and says "Okay if what's going to actually move the needle for me to go ahead and and get bitcoin 26:28 or even just download Stripe and say I can convert my fiat directly at the point of sale into bitcoin take 26:34 advantage of this discount." Um you know that's there for the taking You just have to be a little bit savvy and and 26:40 know the tools Um and I'm I'm happy to to help them along in that journey And I 26:45 think it that's where gradually and suddenly we'll get more and more people who are like "Okay maybe I should get 26:51 some bitcoin because I can get a discount for this service." Do you think that needs to be because 26:58 you're selling kind of a bitcoin service bitcoin themed service right so charging 27:05 a a premium to receive the payment in fiat um versus offering a discount for 27:14 um like I've seen it both ways Like let's say you're a dentist like are you 27:20 are you going to be able to add a 10% fee if they pay in fiat or would it be really better you think in that 27:26 situation to do a discount if they pay in bitcoin it's a great question and funny you bitcoin Discounts vs. Fiat Premiums 27:31 bring up dentistry because I had this come up specifically with my client uh Dr Wilson who's up in up in Michigan but 27:38 actually there are some regulatory considerations for depending on the service you're providing So in dental he 27:43 actually do any discounts um he needs to have it because he's still collecting 27:49 some insurance payments as well Um and then usually his patients will have like an additional amount they owe beyond 27:56 whatever the insurance is covering So in a dental use case specifically you can't really play around with the premiums and 28:01 discounts but more so around memberships things like in again direct primary care where it's still help 28:09 you're going to get health services but it's more of this package I think that's where um you can have a lot of 28:15 flexibility I know Dr Roger I think did a did a bitcoin discount um for for some of his fees So I I I think I see the 28:24 framing you know going both ways but I think more so than oh it's a favor for you to pay me in bitcoin It's kind of 28:30 like the other way where you know you should have to pay more to pay me in fiat Like I want you this this is why I 28:35 want you to pay me in bitcoin and saying this is my fair price Like this is the price value for value for the services 28:40 I'm going to be providing And then if you don't want to pay my preferred way 28:45 then you know there here are some other options uh because I think in this transition period it's of course 28:51 realistic to still expect people to pay in dollars but it's it's great to see it 28:58 kind of matched up side by side and it's always fun to have events where you can do this in real time and and learn And 29:05 we had this last year at our bitcoin having party in Austin where about half the tickets and inerson payments were 29:10 made using bitcoin And then we'll see what happens in a few weeks here with our spring into bitcoin up in Hut 29:16 Hippocial Club We'll be doing ALS uh fundraising for ALS the Hellfiny uh 29:22 research fund and we'll have some merchants there as well We're accepting bitcoin We're accepting bitcoin for for 29:27 tickets with a pretty with a discount as well So it just shows you know who every 29:33 individual gets to make that choice Uh and I think we still are going to see Gresham's law and kind 29:40 of people are going to hoard their good money and spend the bad money first Um but 29:47 eventually we're going to see more more facilitation of payments in bitcoin just because it's easier and more convenient 29:56 And I you see this specific specifically in places outside the US I mean I was just in Costa Rica for the last three 30:02 months uh and got a local uh vendor coffee shop brewery Alhardine up and 30:08 running accepting bitcoin And they have amazing infrastructure there at the bitcoin Jungle app It's all open source 30:13 It's uh really easy to download You see a map of other merchants who are accepting bitcoin And the town where I was Nosara 30:20 particularly didn't have a lot of bitcoin activity especially relative to Uvita and other Santa Teresa other 30:26 places in the country So they can get I think a big uptick for bitcoiners that come through and say "Oh where can I 30:33 spend some bitcoin for kind of still like the novel component of it?" Um but 30:38 it's really easy to get up and running set up a point of sale and it's custodial to start but usually after the 30:46 business owners earn a couple million sats bitcoin Jungle will help get them set up with a hardware wallet and being able to hold their own keys because you 30:53 can be a little more flexible there with Galloy on the back end and having custodial services where in the US 31:00 obviously that's been pushed out You can't really do that So I think we're going to see more and more adoption It's 31:06 way easier and the dollar is already and this along the lines maybe we can have a discussion here too as the medium exchange podcast and what's being used 31:14 but it's just so interesting to see you know the dollar is essentially just on par in terms of acceptance even down to 31:20 the $1 bill in place like Costa Rica alongside their colonus and the the 31:26 exchange rate is just kind of silly like you have the the biggest bill there is 31:31 uh a 20,000 colonus paper and it's that's worth about $40 and then you look 31:38 at the 10,000 which is worth about $20 and then the 5,000 which is worth 10 So it's like I think they kind of probably 31:43 play around with it so that that stays the exchange rate now because anything different the mental math just gets 31:49 ridiculous Um so people can kind of do the math pretty easily But that's where I think as bitcoin continues to 31:55 appreciate and you have you know right now where we're around a thousand sats per dollar it just gets a lot 32:02 easier to start transacting bitcoin and even eventually using bitcoin more as 32:07 the unit of account and how you're pricing things Medium of Exchange is sponsored by the 32:13 bitcoin Payments Adviser If you own or run a business and you'd like to accept bitcoin but don't know how the bitcoin 32:20 payments adviser can help From specific software recommendations and accounting 32:25 implications to training employees and marketing so your customers know you 32:30 accept this new form of payment the bitcoin Payments Advisor can help simplify your journey in accepting 32:36 bitcoin for your business Check out bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com and get 10% off if 32:42 you pay in bitcoin Again that's bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com Now let's get back 32:48 to the show It's so fun to hear all the work that you're doing Jon because like as someone who's been in uh credit card 32:55 processing the last 15 years one of the huge trends that we've seen is uh 33:01 merchants beginning to add on fees if you pay by credit card um because 33:06 merchants are just getting squeezed right and so there is this this trend like this this huge trend of merchants 33:14 awakening to the fact that you know costs are rising the cost of accepting 33:19 money is rising because the credit card companies have a monopoly on the ability to accept money and so uh it's called 33:28 typically either searchcharge or cash discount but um it's it's you know the 33:33 gas station where you know they they charge a fee or or there's a minimum But 33:38 that we're seeing that across all kinds of industries now Um whether it be like 33:43 restaurant and hospitality or in the medical world like with dental a lot of times um they'll start adding on an 33:50 additional fee if you're paying in credit card And so uh it's really interesting to to kind of see that taken 33:58 one step further with bitcoin where you can um accept an even better form of 34:03 money and reduce the fees in the process like you're it's a you're kind of a you know two killing two birds with one 34:09 stone there So that's exciting to hear all the work that you're doing there Thanks I appreciate that And to build 34:16 off that too one of the things that I've been uh kind of playing around with the idea of in terms of like every cycle has 34:22 a theme or an I or a kind of narrative around it is I see this cycle of bitcoin 34:29 as really that bridge cycle where we are bringing these solutions to these 34:35 providers So for example Jon like you were saying it's relatively easy to get 34:40 set up with a Strike account or to get set up with a River account or a Zaprite account and start taking and accepting 34:47 payments It's just that because the ecosystem is so small and you know it may not seem small to us because we're 34:53 so deep in it but the the doctor who is a who's attending to patients or the 35:00 chiropractor or the dentist they don't know that these services exist and they 35:05 don't know that these services feel and look just like any other traditional finance uh finance tool that they've 35:12 been using Right So I just want I just want to like get your thoughts on on 35:17 that idea of the bridge cycle because then to what you were saying is that merchant might work their way up the 35:23 supply chain and say "Hey I'd rather pay you in bitcoin because it's cheaper better faster and I want I want to also 35:32 bring you along for this ride." Um so I guess the question really is just can you talk about some of uh the the 35:39 progression in that um that you've seen in the last few years with Satoshi Health uh and really just the continued 35:46 and compounding um adoption that that is coming along in the space both in the 35:51 healthcare industry but also just broadly Yeah absolutely And I think you Zaprite, APIs & Practical Path 35:56 highlighted a great point there and it's that the business owner is busy delivering their own service and running 36:02 their business And so once you start to introduce anything else new it becomes you know a change management kind of 36:08 process And who's involved in on the admin side on bookkeeping on financials 36:13 on taxes you know you may or may not have someone that can kind of put their hand up and say "No we're not doing 36:19 this." It's it's not worth it And that certainly happens as you get into bigger and more bureaucratic organizations And 36:25 that's where I found success going to smaller business owners um who are still 36:30 who are open to this and maybe aligned on a value side and just need a few hours you know over over the course of a 36:36 month or a couple months just to really understand it and get it set up and set aside an hour a week to to work with me 36:44 And so I think that piece of it is really important So being mindful of you 36:49 know how busy that owner is and what they're focused on But how does it how does bitcoin integrate into the tools 36:56 they're already using and give one story there And you mentioned chiropractor I did work with a chiropractor Dr Pop 37:02 who's out in Wyoming Um and he and most other chiropractors are using this 37:08 software called Jane And it's just their kind of practice management and also has billing in it And as we've seen a lot of 37:14 these SAS solutions pop up over the last few years generally they want to get 37:20 into billing right because they can get a scrape on on all the transactions and that's where you have a lot of middlemen 37:25 in these transactions and bitcoin eliminates that So those types of platforms are not going to be quick to 37:31 integrate bitcoin um because it's taking away some of their revenue source So where we need to be a little creative is 37:37 saying okay how is this going to play into your process um are you just going to have a an alternative bitcoin pay now 37:44 button and this is the steps that your bitcoin patients or customers go through that's separate from the other or can 37:51 you replace your fiat rail and use something like Zapright where there's also the credit card option within the 37:57 checkout experience and you have fiat and bitcoin options that's been successful too But where I think we're 38:03 really going to be heading with this and ultimately you can have some custom API 38:09 connections and builds as well in those processes and actually task trails uh had a really has a really great 38:15 integration they built for our run for how in Austin where through their how 38:20 they normally check do the checkout with runs they were able to embed that that zap right uh payment link it does 38:28 involve a bit more work and you need to have kind of the the interest in and technical ability to do it but that's 38:35 possible across a lot of these other domains and fields So that's where I've been you know it's been fun for me to 38:41 also learn about different industries such as architecture um with my client Brian Jones and also 38:48 even on the ebike side and liquid vitamins with Jon Ramsey and Tropical Oasis because you know they're facing 38:55 different challenges whether you're manufacturing business or you have e-commerce brand you know you want to 39:01 just plug into your Shopify store great use you know you the strike API and so it's like all these tools are there and 39:07 it's just kind of present venting in a way figuring out okay how can I make this as easy as possible for the 39:13 business owner where where they see the the value in spending some time and money right now to to get up to speed 39:19 and do it And I think it is like if if you build it they will come And it's kind of a one this transition period now 39:26 where you just need to get set up with bitcoin kind of once But a lot of the previous friction points were you might 39:32 have oh send me your bitcoin address Oh if I mess up the copy paste there's only one you know not losing my bitcoin I 39:39 don't want to do that So once you get over the hurdle of just spending bitcoin also of course playing around with the Lightning Network as it continues to 39:44 grow and you can have bigger and bigger payments um you know well over thousands of dollars clearing 39:51 and second it's amazing what's possible Um 39:59 and so I think it's just an openness ultimately and a and a willingness to 40:05 change and adopt new technology So just as you know we were maybe too young for it but the whole transition to the 40:11 internet and oh you become an internet business you going to have a website and that was just yeah you know now it's obviously table stakes you got to have a 40:17 website if you're not going to have a website you don't exist Um I think it'll be the same way with bitcoin eventually 40:22 where you you're going to have to accept bitcoin because there's just that many consumers that want to pay in it because 40:28 that's how they've been storing value and then that's how they eventually going to want to spend that value on 40:34 things that they need You know that's where I think I differ and many of us in bitcoin differ even maybe from Michael 40:40 Sailor or saying "Okay never sell your bitcoin." You know I think there there is a price that everybody's going to have on selling their bitcoin people 40:46 that bought 1015 years ago have had a price and they might be selling now around 100k and then other people buying 40:52 in this decade are going to have a different price and as bitcoin's natural volatility in dollar terms smooths out 40:59 as it continues to appreciate you're naturally going to it's going to be a lot easier be to using it in commerce 41:05 dayto-day Yeah I mean in change management there's a term that uh people love to throw 41:11 around around like dual paths or coexistence and that's where we're at with especially Zapright And I think Zapright's doing the best uh out of any 41:18 kind of you know merchant adoption tool because you see it right in front of yourself when you when you're forced to 41:24 pay You see that there's the premium for fiat and then you see the fair market value that you could pay in bitcoin Uh 41:30 and right now because we're so early it takes people who have that have taken 41:35 the time for the education and the understanding of what you just referenced to be willing to share that 41:42 or spend their bitcoin However over time it will just naturally phase itself 41:49 out to where the US dollar maybe it's still kind of a unit of account in terms 41:54 of how we're of how we're pricing things mentally but transactions are going to be settled and and finalized with 42:01 bitcoin because it just makes too much sense for all parties involved Um and I 42:06 think I think that is really the phase that we're moving towards Uh and there will be more instances of like do I 42:14 wanna do I want to pay this extra four 10 whatever percent or do I just want to 42:19 spot buy bitcoin and send it and send it that way uh to to you know save my time 42:25 and energy Yeah Yeah Absolutely I think we're in Freedom to Transact 42:32 that transition period now but also there's going to be a big push still to as much as the US now super bullish and 42:39 getting strategic bitcoin reserve and buying bitcoin and holding it um they're going to want to continue to use the 42:46 dollar um whether in different digital means right and stable coins being the 42:51 one that maybe in the US it won't take the form of a CBDC but still you're going to have private stable coins that 42:57 you don't have a lot of privacy and that can be frozen very easily and quickly from any centralized authority Uh 43:04 meanwhile in Europe you know CBDC is being pushed pretty hard Looks like it's going to get launched around October 43:09 maybe later this year We'll see what the response is If it's anything like Nigeria you know you're going to have a 43:14 lot of push back and people that don't want to use this thing But at the same time unfortunately people often in other 43:20 countries don't have that choice So I'm hopeful that in the US we'll still have that choice We'll have the freedom to 43:25 transact the way that we want even if the dollar is still you know legal tender You don't need to make bitcoin 43:30 legal tender but let businesses and individuals make the decision in how they want to transact And if you want 43:36 the the convenience and still using stable dollars go for it um because 43:42 they're going to have to print more of them in whatever way shape or form to address this $36 trillion debt issue Um 43:49 to just finish reading the big print Larry Leard it's great great book Um something you can hand off also to any 43:55 of the other boomer relatives to relate to his just to the age and what they've experienced Um but I think you know the 44:02 system's worked one way for 40 50 years and we're seeing coming to the point 44:09 where it's just not working anymore Especially for young people who want to save and who are working hard and are 44:14 still having a difficulty in doing the things they want to do because they're feeling stuck or they just can't afford 44:20 the home because the home is now five to seven times your average annual income instead of it being you know two times 44:26 what it was you know a few decades ago or in Canada it's even worse right it's like 10 times average income So it's 44:33 really I think a choice that individuals then will have to make and say okay if I choose to store my value of the work I'm 44:40 doing in bitcoin when I choose to spend and support businesses who are also in this network we're naturally going to 44:46 strengthen over time versus having to store your value in a currency that's devaluing which is 44:54 what purposefully which is what inflation the stated rates 2% but now they're saying oh maybe we need to just 45:00 pick 3% because we can't get down to 2% So now 3% of your wealth is going to be stolen every year instead of 2% And so 45:07 you know I think as you get orange pill you realize it's just become so obvious that you know you should be saving as 45:13 much as you can in bitcoin Yes there will be some changes in the short term 45:18 um in terms of the US dollar price because there's going to be more dollars printed but ultimately there will only 45:24 ever be 21 million bitcoin you can get your piece of that and hold it in 12 words in your head go wherever in the 45:30 world and as more merchants there you can go and buy your coconuts or buy your coffee with bitcoin uh very easily and 45:37 in an interoperable way So I'm hopeful that you know more people will make that decision that they want to have a sense 45:44 of ownership and privacy over their money and they choose to use that one Uh but there will of course be places that 45:50 get forced into devaluations such as we saw in Bolivia uh last week or two weeks 45:56 ago where they're having anyone storing dollars is being forced to convert that into the Bolivian uh currency and and 46:04 getting devalued by 50% immediately So you know you think you're storing your value in something a bit more stable 46:09 like the dollar but even still if it's held in a bank it's permissioned Someone else is really controlling it It's an 46:15 IOU Um and so if we start taking advantage of what bitcoin offers it's 46:22 really a blessing And I'm hopeful in trying to you know as I'm on the bitcoin marketing team as a lot of us are you 46:29 know there's there's no CEO to report to so you can be creative you can have fun with it And that's why I've loved you know doing what I'm doing over the last 46:35 few years and you know getting out of kind of the fiat healthare system and as more and more roles and jobs get 46:42 squeezed as you mentioned Jason on the fiat processing side certainly is a big one but even business models in other 46:48 aspects of the industry that I've seen such as the supply chain or medical products and supplies where it's just 46:56 more and more difficult to to deliver 47:02 uh value and as you're seeing more manufacturing whatnot go overseas It's just I even saw that from an exchange 47:08 risk perspective You know we were buying all of our products from China Okay the dollar devalues against the Guan All of a sudden your products are a lot more 47:15 expensive And so even those types of interactions where they were just accepting bitcoin at some of the Chinese 47:22 manufacturers we were working with actually would have smoothed out a lot of the business volatility that we saw 47:28 just from exchange uh rate ch uh uh 47:33 volatility I don't know if you've seen that Jason too in some of your fiat payment works as it relates to international payments 47:41 Yeah most of my clients some of them accept international payments Um but 47:46 typically they are pretty focused on domestic Uh and then they they the way 47:54 the the Visa and Mastercard rails work are you know whatever dollar amount that 47:59 you're charging it just autoconverts in the background for the merchant so that they don't have to um you know handle 48:06 that Um I I have I have one other question for you Jon So one of the things that you mentioned 48:13 is that it's so obvious that it's a blessing Um Jack you mentioned it just 48:19 will get to the point where it makes too much sense for all parties involved But 48:24 for today Jon you know you're dealing with doctors dentists 48:30 chiropractors There's got to be some some push back today right what are what are the biggest 48:36 misconceptions that businesses have about bitcoin that you're seeing in the 48:41 market today yeah I think the biggest push back would probably be kind of the phrase that you Bridging the bitcoin Belief Gap 48:49 uh isn't worth the squeeze and you know it's just okay I can go and set up 48:55 bitcoin but is anyone actually going to pay me in bitcoin and you know thinking okay I'm going to be spending some time 49:01 and money here just getting the the system set up and maybe other employees getting them on board There's some kind 49:06 of political capital they need to spend to say "Okay here's another process or step that we're going to introduce." Um 49:13 so the ROI I think just really needs to be there And I think that's fair totally from the business owner perspective to 49:18 to challenge and and push back on that Um but I think you know there the way I 49:23 like to address that in a couple ways is again anyone paying in bitcoin you're going to lower your transaction fees 49:29 compared to what you're get what you're getting t taken from now particularly around the credit card side and as we 49:34 mentioned even higher fees on the electronic medical record and billing side of things and then it's putting 49:41 yourself out there from a marketing perspective and saying can I grow my business and attract more customers I 49:46 wouldn't have gotten unless I was accepting bitcoin Um and another way to do that is through bitcoin rewards 49:52 platform like Oshi for example That makes it pretty easy to to tack on rewards and loyalty and increase your 50:00 average order value increase your customer lifetime value Some of the traditional metrics businesses are are 50:05 looking at to grow their business I think all that can happen with bitcoin 50:11 Um so that's that's definitely a big hangup I think another you know is just 50:17 still a lot of the FUD that's out there around bitcoin that's lingering around a 50:23 lot of the mainstream media takes whether it uses a lot of energy and someone who considers themselves green 50:28 think they they don't want to use bitcoin without realizing that in order to be profitable mining 50:34 bitcoin you actually have to have the lowest cost energy which incentivizes stranded or or cheaper wasted energy 50:41 which ultimately is better for the environment You know you need to kind of explain some of these things or you 50:46 think okay well maybe the government's going to ban it and now at this point in 2025 whereas my work I was doing a 50:53 couple years ago the story might have been different you know now at this point I think at least in the US pretty safe to say bitcoin's not going to get 51:00 banned at that level let alone can be stopped so I think some of the FUD naturally dissipates over time but 51:06 certainly there there are challenges or questions uh that come up where 51:13 depending on the age uh of the business owner But that's where I think the younger business 51:18 owners are you know maybe they'll they they're savvy enough they know it they can get it set up by themselves But 51:24 where I've been able to support other um business owners too can be like maybe 51:29 one business owner is personally very very orange build They're already saving bitcoin They're like fully on board but 51:34 their partner is not And so it can be helpful to have like somewhat of an you know have an objective voice have 51:40 someone come in explain bitcoin uh and how it works and present the options to that other partner where they can say 51:47 yes or no Um but eventually they kind of see okay u it's not just coming from my 51:53 crazy business partner over here but there's you know more you know there's a lot deeper 51:59 levels to it So that's where I think the the consulting side of things is finally 52:04 kind of telling that story [Music] Medium of Exchange is sponsored by Polaris Payments Let's face it for now 52:12 businesses still need to accept fiat and credit cards Polaris Payments helps with all your credit card processing needs 52:19 using a consultative approach Think of Polaris like a performance coach helping 52:25 take your business to the next level when it comes to accepting all forms of money And the best part it's run by a 52:30 bitcoiner For more information about Polaris Payments visit 52:36 polarispayments.com That's p o l a r i s p a y m 52:42 nts.com Now let's get back to the show Yeah So have basically having a third party like yourself come in who can have 52:50 kind of a an objective view and be able to explain the pros and 52:56 cons from a from a broader perspective rather than just from that one you know 53:02 owner founder manager etc Yeah Yeah Absolutely I think as bigger bitcoin as a Career, Strategy, and Statement 53:08 businesses start to adopt a bitcoin strategy and we're seeing that now with GameStop you know yesterday when you had 53:13 leaders in the healthcare space the medical side like Similar Scientific you know it's often needed you have you need 53:19 to have Charismatic or owner that has a lot of especially in public company side 53:25 the ability to actually make it happen Um but even in private organizations that have a lot of layers to them it's 53:33 potentially getting many different parties on board with a certain strategic decision 53:38 to integrate a bitcoin strategy But it can take again many shapes and forms where the easy you know the simplest can 53:45 just be okay we'll put 1% or 5% of our treasury in bitcoin Eventually can be 53:51 more customer interactions as it comes to accepting payments and rewards Um but 53:56 ultimately you don't need to do all of them at once So it can be a journey You can you know pick and choose which you think will kind of resonate or move the 54:02 needle for you first and then come back to the other aspects But generally no matter what industry you're in or type 54:10 of business you are now even specifically in healthcare and I'm a yogi uh a yoga teacher So I've also done 54:16 a lot of writing on the integration of bitcoin and yoga and I've helped some yogis over time accept bitcoin payments 54:22 you're probably going to be a first mover in whatever field you're you're in and whether you're posting on Instagram 54:29 or X or you're already posting on Noster you know you can make an make a splash and and kind of set yourself apart from 54:36 your competitors just from the fact that you're integrating bitcoin to some extent And eventually that won't be the 54:42 case Obviously you won't be a not everybody's going to be a first mover as everyone accepts bitcoin But I think here still in early 2025 that is still 54:49 the case Uh but I bet by the end of the decade you know that that won't be the case and it'll be in order to stay in 54:55 business you have to accept bitcoin and you have to save in bitcoin because otherwise there's just going to be too 55:00 much volatility and it's going to be too difficult for you to run a business on a on a money that's hyperinflating Whether 55:07 first it's the other 159 currencies before the dollar um and we have that 55:13 play out or it's eventually the dollar you know the history of fiat currencies 55:18 is that every single one that is not backed by a sound money goes to zero So I'm not hoping that that happens 55:24 tomorrow and and hopefully there can be this dual existence for a while and we figure out a way to make that work But I 55:30 think either way bitcoin will have to be the new shoulders or currency for that type of system to even operate Um which 55:38 means you know might make sense to get some in case it catches on 55:45 Couldn't agree more You know it's funny I was talking to a uh I was talking to a friend yesterday 55:51 um and I was sending him some like uh LinkedIn internship opportunities that 55:58 bigger bitcoin businesses in the space were sharing and I was just basically 56:03 like I would have loved to have have this opportunity when I was in college like you know it does show the growth of 56:10 the industry where there is uh there there are careers and and opportunities that you can take on but we are still so 56:17 early to your point uh where if you're in more of a niche industry you're probably going to be that first mover 56:23 and you know that takes more risk but that also provides more asymmetric upside So um we'll continue to see that 56:30 and as the purchasing power and the price continues to appreciate uh I I 56:36 think you you hit it spot on You might as well you might as well catch some in case it in case it uh it catches on 56:42 Awesome Totally agree Jon thank you so much for coming on This was great Um really excited to see uh everything you 56:49 continue pushing forward in the space Um super excited for the awesome bitcoin Club event coming up in a few weeks uh 56:56 to raise money for ALS So I'm sure we'll talk a lot uh we'll talk a lot over the next few weeks with ticket sales and and 57:02 fundraising but um really appreciate uh you taking the time today Awesome Yeah thanks so much guys for 57:09 having me on This was fun and good luck in getting your uh podcast you know up and running and as you continue to to 57:15 bring on more guests and tell these stories as a medium of exchange and that's awesome So keep me posted and and 57:21 how else I can support your guys' efforts Awesome Yeah same here Vice versa man 57:27 Excited for what you're doing Thank you [Music]