0:00It makes it makes total sense for the merchants and it was so eye opening. What did they say the three problems0:05were for for merchants? They said it was um high fees and high interchange fees0:10and and just high cost in general to make a transaction, too many intermediaries, non-instant settlement,0:16you know, that it takes 48 hours to settle um and chargebacks and fraud. What what does uh Bitcoin payments0:22offer? Well, you know, offers lower fees, less intermediaries, instant settlements, and and no chargebacks. All0:30the things that the merchants want or I'm hearing from the credit card processors that merchants want are0:36available. Uh it's just about making sure that we again get them the right solution and you know, listen and try to0:43find the right solution within Bitcoin that's going to work for them.0:52Welcome to Medium of Exchange, the podcast where we spotlight business owners building on a Bitcoin standard.0:57Each week, we share real stories, practical insights, and why this monetary shift matters more than ever.1:03Today's guest is not just watching the revolution from the sidelines. He is helping build it across industries and1:10continents. Adam Copperweight is creating systems that empower people and open new possibilities through Apago. He1:18is accelerating Bitcoin lightning payments for merchants here in the United States through his nonprofit work1:24in Zambia. He's breaking cycles of poverty and opening doors to education, health, and empowerment, including1:31Bitcoin Victoria Falls, where he co-founded a Bitcoin circular economy. And if that wasn't enough, at a vegan,1:37he's improving patient outcomes and nursing education. In other words, I want to be Adam when I grow up. Adam,1:43welcome to the Medium of Exchange podcast. Thank you for being here. We're so glad you're here. Thanks for having me, guys.1:48Yeah. Um, so Adam, how did like tell us about your journey. How did how did you get into Bitcoin?1:55Uh, through libertarian circles. Tom Wood show to be specific. Um, so converted libertarian, you know, kind of2:02my teenage late 20 years. Really started listening to that kind of uh, philosophy and, you2:08know, angle at politics, if you will. And um I was diving really kind of deep2:14into Mises and reading economics in one lesson by Henry Hasslid and then Bitcoin kind of hit me right after that. It just2:21kind of clicked a lot and and made a lot of sense as it related to Austrian economics and and that's really what got2:28me interested in diving deeper. Um spent several years diving deeper and just kind of in my own research podcasts, you2:35know, listening, absorbing, you know, reading the Bitcoin standard, etc. Um yeah, and then I I wanted to2:42participate. I wanted to socialize and network in the industry. So that took me to El Salvador to see what was going on2:48down there was shortly after they passed the legal tender laws. And I wanted to go and see I'm a global traveler. I2:54wanted to go and see and do and um experience. And so headed down there with my wife and we flew our dog down3:01and stayed for about a month. And that kind of inspired the philanthropic side of things. Um, and as you mentioned, my3:08my company Atkin, where my mom co-founded, I had some security and some job stabilization with that and director3:14of sales there. And so I I was kind of thinking about how to how do I further participate in Bitcoin without3:19necessarily jumping into the job scene, but you know, still wanting to socialize and network in in the in the industry.3:24So that's when I launched the the Bitcoin Victoria Falls um and and went down that pathway first. So,Adam's Journey into Bitcoin3:31libertarianism which led you to Austrian economics which led you to El Salvador3:36and then something led you to Zambia. What was that? Yeah, good question. Um, so I had been3:42donating I grew up in the church and feel very committed to philanthropy and and I had been donating to a initiative3:49called the Free Haven Community Initiative. Um, and I that is founded by a woman named Samantha Knob who's from3:54Maryland. Um but she moved over to Zambia to help children with nutrition and empowerment programs and you know4:02extracurricular activities and extra tutoring and school support and and just to kind of you know work in the4:07community in Zambia. And so um I had been donating to that cause um and sponsoring children over there and you4:13know following their work for several years. And so when I when my kind when my mind went to how do I give back? how4:20do I participate in a philanthropic way in the space? I kind of thought as well where is it where where do I have4:26network and where do I have the highest impact and you know I I briefly thought about Denver because I was living there4:31at the time and there's a big Latin community in there and and I thought maybe the me premier Bitcoin curriculum4:37would go over well within the Denver community but it was kind of a brief thought I glanced over. I knew I I would4:42be moving from there at some point in the future when I you know my wife and I started a family. And so um I quickly4:48kind of passed over that thought and and really started thinking about Free Haven and and um you know that work that was4:55being done in Zambia and and how much of an impact it could have in that kind of a community and that kind of a location.5:01And so that's where it brought me to to to Zambia. And and at first I approached Free Haven about it. They were5:07interested in the concept but they didn't know a lot about Bitcoin. some of the board members did and and were familiar, you know, with the impact that5:14it could have. Um, but overall the whole organization and the entire board team kind of asked me to build it in parallel5:20and so, you know, I built Bitcoin Victoria Falls in the same town that5:25Free Haven is operating in. And I'm currently actually have recently joined as board treasurer uh in the past year5:31for Free Haven. So I'm kind of building or participating in both, you know, nonprofit philanthropic initiatives in5:38Livingston Zambia, you know, and there's starting to be some overlap, but it's5:43they're they were built in parallel. That's really cool. Can you explain a little bit more about what in Zambia has5:52kind of caught on in terms of both that education and as well as the New Haven project or the Free Haven project rather5:59uh and and just where you see it kind of progressing in terms of the education side and the embrace of of this6:06initiative. Jack and I are so happy you're here. But here's the deal. We need your feedback.6:14What do you like? What do you not like? Who do you want us to have on the show? In my businesses, anytime I suggest copy6:20edits, I always say edits welcome, guys. Edits welcome. Please uh comment and6:27while you're at it, do us a favor and like and subscribe. It really helps out the show. Yeah. I think one of the really uniquePhilanthropic Initiatives in Zambia6:33things about Livingston, the the city that we operate in specifically, is that it's um a thriving tourist area, but we6:41didn't start by focusing on tourism specifically for Bitcoin Victoria Falls. So, we started with focusing on the6:47local community and education and we're slowly bringing it into that there is potential for one Bitcoiner tourist or6:54just regular tourists that might potentially have Bitcoin um to spend it, right? But I think some of the other7:00circular condos I've seen that were in a tourism location really dialed in on let's let's capture this from a tourist7:07perspective. And ours, you know, I was cautioned against that. Um because not every tourist is a Bitcoiner and not7:13every Bitcoiner is going to travel the world. Um and so while you want to kind of work those tentacles into it, our7:20really firm foundation and our number one priority was education and and for that we used the Mi Premier Bitcoin7:25curriculum and those guys are awesome. Um the no network is amazing and7:30extremely supportive and so we modified their 10-week curriculum to be five weeks and I connected with a local7:38Zambian uh who co-ounded the initiative with me named Humphrey Simmonwa and Humphrey is from Lusaka so he's from the7:44capital but Anita Posh if you're familiar with her work had already done some work in Zambia and Zimbabwe and so7:51when I was looking for somebody to be the community leader and lead this initiative I reached out to her and her7:57team And through her work, Humphrey was participating in that Lusaka community and Lusaka Bitcoin community there which8:04is still thriving as well. And so Humphrey agreed to kind of be the community leader and and take on this8:09initiative from a boots on the ground perspective. And again we launched that with finding a place to teach the class8:16and you know bringing you know inviting students to learn through participating in the ME premier Bitcoin curriculum and8:23if they attend four out of the five weeks of uh that we teach they get a graduation certificate and so that was8:29what we started and we we stayed really on top of that for one year right we didn't want to really branch out into8:35merchant adoption until we felt that we were having success in the education side and so after a year approximately a8:42year we we started launching our merchant adoption project and that was in January of this year and we've been8:48on that train for about eight months now and I think by setting the solid foundation of education first and8:54merchant adoption second this this wave of merchant adoption has just taken off9:00like wildfire to the point where we're actually quelling it a bit and making sure that we're focusing on the9:05merchants that have brought this on that they're they're getting transactions that they're interacting in the community that they're getting locals9:11visiting and that there the the the adoption part is successful, right? So, that's kind of a little bit about, you9:17know, where we started and where we're at now. And do you think and that that's anEducation and Merchant Adoption in Zambia9:23incredible story and I love the like low time preference that you took to really set the groundwork and get that education and and like the the9:30wherewithal of people to understand what they would end up seems like they're adopting. And I guess the follow-up9:35question to that is what do you think that is that is that's scratching that itch of why it caught on like wildfire9:42and is there something in whether it's the local currency or just the culture of Zimbabwe sorry not Zimbabwe Zambia9:49that people are more willing to accept Bitcoin because we we hear in the United States of people using it as store of9:56value but not as much wanting to use it as a medium of exchange and that's what you know your work is definitely10:02changing that's what Jason and I are trying to push forward with conversations like this. So, I'm always curious to hear what some of those, you10:09know, aha moments or people really kind of getting it to want to use Bitcoin, what it's for what its purpose is as10:15money. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, we're still learning and we're still evolving and still really getting a good10:21firm understanding of of um you know, what's working so well because it is and it and it's still fairly early for us. I10:26mean, we're about a year and a half into the the project launching, but you know, for starters, I would say that um one,10:33they don't have a lot of the payments processing systems over there, hardware, point of sale terminals, like that's not10:40prevalent, right? Um they're either kind of taking cash or mobile money is is kind of the most prevalent payment10:45solution. And so when you can go to a merchant and say, "Hey, we have a digital way of you accepting payments10:51without the need of high processing fees and without the need for intensive10:57hardware. You can, you know, have this on your phone or have a QR code posted." It's really appealing to them to have11:03another form of, you know, exact, for example, the the merchants that are tourist forward or are seeing tourists11:09come through, they now have a way of digitally maybe taking a digital payment from that tourist and and so it it gives11:16them that opportunity of interacting in a in a digital financial ecosystem without taking on the burden of high11:23processing fees and hardware. That that's at least my initial assumption in addition to those that understand kind11:29of the sound money and hard money. I mean there's there's obviously currency debasement challenges there like there is globally like meaning we even we even11:36recognize that here but you know it's it on a scale it's it's worse there and on a scale it's even worse in their11:42neighboring country which is Zimbabwe right next door. I mean that's on pace with the Venezuelan boulevard as far as11:48how much the Zimbabwean currency got debased and they saw that I mean the Zambians are right especially in11:53Livingston. Zimbabwe is a stones throw away. It's right across Victoria Falls. So I think it's it's a combination of12:00understanding hard money and what it would offer for them and you know participating in the digital ecosystem12:05without the expense necessarily of doing so. I have a $100 trillion note framed in myUnderstanding the Local Economy and Bitcoin's Role12:12bathroom. I have uh Zimbabwean currency like like hanging on my wall hundred12:17trillion dollars and it and it's worth maybe a couple dollars or less if you12:22convert it to US dollars. Well, and I love I love the symbolism of you hanging it in your bathroom.12:28Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, what kind of outcomes are you seeing? So, you you12:33you're seeing merchants, they want to accept Bitcoin. Like, how is this12:38circular economy, merchant adoption, how is that just like real world impact? What's what's happening there in Zambia?12:45Yeah. Um, again, it's still early. We launched the merchant adoption program in January and we've we've brought on12:51about 168 merchants. And to be fair, if there was a a SATS incentive um to do so. And so we to all the community12:57members who had taken the the um course and graduated, uh you know, we threw out a SATS incentive to let the local13:03merchants know because we really wanted to get it. Now, we also based on Bitcoin Accazy's recommendation, we really13:09focused in on a bonus on that if it was in a specific geographical area, and13:15that is that you don't want to spread your merchants all over the place, right? um you want to make it kind of13:20consolidated and easy for somebody to maybe visit two or three merchants if they're spending in SATs and really13:26target a geographical area. And now thankfully Livingston's kind of central town area is is fairly well consolidated13:32already and and a large majority of our merchants were brought on there. We have since um stopped the incentive program13:38again because we got so many merchants on boarded. We didn't want to get to the points where we were overextending13:44ourselves and not um not having followup with those merchants. How how is your13:49your how many transactions are you getting? So, we're going back on three-month visits now. We're going back and checking in with them. How many13:55transactions are you getting daily or how many weekly? What has been your experience with with this payment14:00method? Um, is it something that's working for your business? Is is there any challenges that you have that we can14:05help you overcome? So, it kind of goes back to that customer service side of things of not just, hey, on board and14:11then you never see us again. Our focus is really on a consolidated geographic area, letting the community members14:17know, you know, and and helping having them help us reach the merchants that would be open to this and then following14:24up and and making sure that they're successful. And so, we're kind of at that point now. I mean, we're we're14:30about eight months into the merchant adoption program. you know, we've had some of those three-month follow-ups, but they're they're kicking off pretty14:36heavy right now that we're we're not we are still onboarding merchants um that but there there's no longer the the SATS14:43incentive to do so. It's more of that, you know, is that 168 and and this is14:48this is another goal is is the observation of that 168 merchants and what it's bringing to those merchantsReal-World Impact of Bitcoin Adoption14:54just going to incentivize people to naturally adopt this as as an as an option and see what the the 168 who were15:02the first movers are getting from it. And so we're really starting to see that. We're starting to produce some15:07videos of where we're going back on those three-month visits. If you follow us on on X or Noster, you'll see that we15:14put out really high quality merchant adoption videos that kind of share the story of these merchants. At first, it15:20was a lot about kind of bringing them on board, and now we're going back and interviewing them for these three-month check-ins. And so, it's really powerful15:26to hear firsthand from them what they're getting out of it. And and the I thought the coolest thing was uh there was a15:33woman who owns a restaurant with her husband. The woman had already had already taken the me premiere uh Bitcoin15:38course with us. the husband's in it right now in the current cohort and she mentioned that she had taken a lot of15:44transactions in in Bitcoin uh for a business and she went and bought some bread with it at another business next15:50door that accepts Bitcoin and so you're starting to see that second evolution or sec you know your second rollover take15:55place of spending it at you know another place. So that was really cool to see to me you know especially only 8 months in16:01to kind of start to see that really take shape and there's a lot more um a lot more to come once we once we continue to16:08work on this. What I love about this, Adam, is that you're combining, you're16:13not just providing a tool, you're providing the why behind the tool. You're providing the educational16:18element. There's so many just people globally that have never gone down the16:25rabbit hole of understanding economics, Keynesian versus Austrian economics, and debt based system versus hard money, and16:30like why we need a form of hard money and how Bitcoin is a tool to store16:36value. I mean, it's it's really cool to hear how you're comp combining this like deep enrichment of of educational16:43knowledge here and then providing really like on the ground real world tools. This is really exciting to hear.16:50Yeah. And I I will I'll pitch something back over to you guys as a kind of a thought. You know, my my next thought is where do we go to get more stats into16:57the into the economy, right? as a nonprofit and somebody, you know, something that's not focused on, you17:04know, purely, you know, we don't want to be dumping all of the sats in, right? We want to start to figure out how do we17:09get more in without necessarily it all coming through the circular economy or all coming through just community17:15members buying, right? And so I was thinking of a way of, you know, how do we encourage these business owners whoSustainable Circular Economies17:21are having a lot of success of offering an option for their employees to be paid as a portion of their salary in Bitcoin,17:27right? And I think we've got to think about that a little bit as these circular economies to make this sustainable, right? Because at the end17:34of the day, we are a nonprofit. And if we're relying on, you know, donations to get Bitcoin education and Bitcoin17:41adoption in the area, we're still going to be focused on that education and adoption and and not necessarily, you17:47know, getting more sats fl you know, overall into the economy, which then is going to So, I think we have to think17:53about that as well from like an educating business owners. And I'd just love to hear your guys' thoughts on on that, you know, as an approach um on on18:00getting, you know, getting in more hands and more people in the area and really starting to use it as a currency.18:06Yeah. I mean I think you almost already mentioned it but that woman who owns the18:11restaurant and then went to purchase bread using Bitcoin like it just those second and third degree effects will18:17begin to create that circular economy because circular economy yes it's people accepting Bitcoin but then it's also the18:24transactions right and that creates that kind of velocity of money which is more of a you know Keynesian idea in18:31economics but it there is a lot of writing that you know like Parker Lewis has talked about of of the value today18:37and me spending my sats for bread for example. Yeah, maybe that in 10 years I end up spending 200 bucks, 300 bucks for18:44a loaf of bread, but in this current moment it's what's valuable to me and18:50then it helps not only accomplish what I'm looking to accomplish in my restaurant, but then it also helps the18:55the b the baker who's who's making the bread. So, I think that's, you know, where the education just continues to19:03compound and people are like, "Okay, I have this money and it's a great store of value, but it's also becoming more of19:09what I'm holding and I want to transact in it because I don't want to hold the other currency anymore." And you just19:15see this natural progression. I mean, the fact that that that you've only been kind of operating in this in this19:21merchant adoption phase for less than a year and you've you're already seeing some early signals of that is really19:27exciting. And I think that's what's interesting about operating on different parts of the world because in the United19:33States we do have that, you know, quote unquote stable US dollar where people are much less likely to want to spend19:41their Bitcoin and, you know, you have the president saying never sell your Bitcoin and you have all these different19:46kind of arbitragees in the market that are coming out where you don't have to sell your Bitcoin and you could take on debt. But even what you were saying in19:52the more developing parts of the world, they don't have that option. So, it's just this idea. It's it's just getting19:58it in the hands of people, which I think just through education and conversations like this, it starts to wake up more20:04people, you know, even just taking that first step of like, okay, what is this and how do I get some? And then from20:10there, I like to say just Bitcoin does its thing, right? It sucks you into the rabbit hole and you start to learn and20:17read about things that you never thought you'd be reading or learning about. And next thing you know, you're you're aThe Concept of Circular Economies20:22laser eyed Maxi and you're just like, "All right, like this is this is the the future of global finan of the global20:28financial system and there's nothing that will stop it." I would assume, Adam, that that folks in that community20:34would either need to buy from an exchange or or obtain like through a peer-to-peer transaction or tourists or20:40donations into the community, right? It has to start somewhere. It has to like the original Bitcoin has to be sourced20:46somehow. But then assuming folks can um you know live within their means and20:52they have some savings capacity then NGU like number go up is is a great marketing tool right for Bitcoin and20:59seeing it not just like reading about it but like seeing your purchasing power going up is obviously a very powerful21:06thing right your cost of living is going down every year as time goes on if you're saving in Bitcoin and then if21:12they can um ideally spend and replace it rather than just you know spending it.21:17Uh can can you fill us in like just for our listeners what is a circular21:22economy? If we just step back for a second, what is a circular economy? Why is it important? And and what what was21:28for you specifically like the moment it clicked where you're like this is something I need to contribute my time and energy to?21:35Yeah. So I think the the first one is actually to my knowledge in Arnham,21:41Netherlands and and that started with onchain Bitcoin but the catalyst to my21:46knowledge is is Bitcoin Beach in El Salvador and there was a anonymous donor to Mike Peterson down there. Mike21:53Peterson is an American and from the United States but he moved to El Salvador live live his life down there.22:00This is pre- Bitcoin. Um and he worked at something called the Hope House in in Elzante. He's a surfer and, you know,22:06ended up putting his roots in his family in in Alzante, El Salvador, you know, and and he was working with the Hope22:12Palace and working with the community and and an anonymous donor came to him. I don't I think he was a a Bitcoiner22:17before the anonymous donor showed up. I don't know all the the details on that, but anyway, the idea was, you know,22:23getting it in the peer-to-p peer cash medium exchange side, um, and seeing it work in a in a a small community in Al22:29Salvador, and it did. And so I think the concept is is more local, more community22:35based initiatives. And again, getting Bitcoin into a community or a local initiative and seeing it be moved around22:42in those areas. I don't think it necessarily has to be circular. That's just kind of the the colloquial term for22:47it all. But again, it's it's having multiple hops within that community, you22:53know, that a payment is made and then another payment is made to another person accepting Bitcoin. And again,22:58just adoption in a more local sense. And I think, you know, as as a libertarian myself who believes that, you know, the23:04the smallest possible form of government is the best and the all the way down to23:09the family and the community and the and the individual. I think that's what really spoke to me is is I'd much ratherChallenges and Opportunities in the U.S. Market23:16operate in a in a local community environment than I would on a state country, you know, basis, right? And so23:23given that opportunity, I think the these localized Bitcoin circular economies are indeed extremely powerful23:29to show what can be done when we focus on family, community and and individuals23:36and not work on collectivism which which we see has brought us to this point of23:41fiat currency and and all the challenges that we have you know in different countries uh globally. So I think that's23:47that's what appealed to me and it's it's what's being shown to work on the ground. But that that's kind of the nuance or you know kind of in a nutshell23:54what Bitcoin and circular economies are focused on. You know all of them are a little bit unique. Um again if you look23:59at the ME premier Bitcoin node network that is specifically light we call them24:05light nodes or or full nodes that are focused on Bitcoin education. There isn't necessarily a merchant adoption24:11side of each one of those nodes within the network. There's a couple different different initiatives um and24:16associations like the circular Bitcoin Africa fund which is led by Bitcoin Accazi and and Herman um Vivie from24:22there and he works very closely with Bitcoin Beach to my knowledge on24:27supporting all of the Bitcoin circular economies in Africa. There's also the Federation of of Bitcoin Circular24:33Economies which is is run by Scott Wolf. He's in Toronto, Canada um and has a passion for for this type of of work.24:40And so there's a couple different organizations, associations, nonprofits that are that are working to make sure24:46that these initiatives have have resources and are successful both from the education side and the merchant24:52adoption side. And I would say those are the two primary wings of any of these initiatives globally is is you know24:59either both of those or one or the other. Um and so that's kind of what they they are and and there's they're25:05growing. There's a lot of them sprouting up globally and so keep your eye on those. That's awesome. Yeah. I love how25:10I know Jack, you're in Texas, but sometimes smaller is better. Sometimes having like these small like think about25:16how it feels to go to a local farmers market and be buying and selling within your local community and versus like a25:23mega grocery store. It it's it's apples and or to use a produce term, it's apples and oranges, right? And so that's25:29really cool to to hear about all these communities popping up that are local,Future Directions for Bitcoin in Local Economies25:35you know, keeping things within the community, helping one another out. And then I I I like to say that everything25:41trickles down from economics. Like the more I study economics, the more I realize like everything is influenced by economics and money. And so if you can25:49if you can help empower people within their local community with a better form of money that stays within their community, all the better, right?25:55Is your business accepting a form of payment that stores value over time? A recent survey showed the number one26:02challenge that small business owners are facing today is inflation. You raise26:08prices, renegotiate with vendors, try to stay ahead, but your dollars keep losing purchasing power. At the Bitcoin26:15Payments Adviser, we help business owners like you accept Bitcoin, a form of money that's built to resist26:21inflation. Unlike dollars, Bitcoin has a fixed supply and that means the value26:26that you receive today has the potential to hold or grow over time, not quietly26:32erode. Our service makes it simple. No servers and tech headaches, just easy26:37setup, white glove support, integration with your existing systems. If you're ready to explore a smarter way to get26:43paid, one that helps you fight inflation instead of fall behind, visit bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com.26:50Again, that's bitcoin payments advisor.com. Yeah. Um, absolutely. I mean, that's26:56what we're focused on and and I think, you know, that's what also I I think it's that's where the United States side27:02of things, the financial services growth over here and the fact that we are the world reserve currency lends to a little27:08bit of those challenges. Um, and especially the size of things. I mean, if you look at the way business grew over here, it grew substantially in a27:15centralized manner in my in my opinion and across the sprawling United States27:20with chains and um you know large change in large stores. And so when you think about this, small businesses got27:28squeezed out and continue to get squeezed out one by the regulatory environment and and the unfavorability27:34of of everything you have to do to to run a small business here and how much it costs and and how challenging it is.27:40And again, that some of that is the size of the US and and how things have grown,27:46you know, how big the market is. And so if a business is successful, they can serve a large market and therefore um27:52they they grow and and create multiple locations and stuff along those lines. I think that's the interesting thing is in27:58in the United States is I don't think medium exchange is going to happen for for a large majority is not going to28:04happen at a localized level here. You're going to have to get into these chains. You're going to have to get into these28:09point of sale terminals and you're going to have to be able to offer this on a wider scale. And therefore, you need28:15people that are knowledgeable in sales, knowledgeable on how to convince these28:20large merchants to to to adopt this. And yeah, are you going to have your farmers markets around? Yeah, would I love that28:27to be kind of where I shop and where I focus, but it's just not the way that the the market or the business market28:34has has evolved in the United States. And I think that's where it's kind of a little bit different here versus maybe28:41some areas of the world like where these Bitcoin circular economies are sprouting up and they don't have big chains and28:46big you know big um big merchant stores and you know they are more localized in general because of the way that country28:53has evolved and so I think that's a different dynamic on on where we're at in you know our country versus other29:00areas and another reason that I'm that I'm you know kind of turning some of my sites and efforts to the US because I29:06think it's ripe over here with the right, you know, especially right now. Yeah. And Jason, I mean, even just to29:11piggyback off what you just said, like everything comes back to economics. It's the opportunity cost, right? So, like in29:17the United States, I completely agree with how you how you frame that, Adam. And what's cool about Bitcoin and the29:25node network that you were describing with uh the ME premier Bitcoin and just like all of these global communities29:31that are, you know, kind of trying to accomplish the same thing but in very29:37not or in somewhat different ways gives like really interesting case studies and29:42use cases for what works, what doesn't, what maybe works here in the United29:48States versus what works in Zambia or in El Salvador or name that country. And I29:54think that's what's so cool about the global kind of model of Bitcoin where everybody can participate, but then30:02really zooming into that local like execution layer of, you know, you might30:07need to go to a chain like a stake and shake or a cash app, you know, integration of Bitcoin payments to30:13really get it to catch on in the United States. But when you're in a smaller community, then it's more of the it's30:19more of the farmers market model and actually like shaking your rancher's hand and doing those sorts of30:24transactions that get people to to trust. And that's that's I think something that I mean we could probably30:30go deep into the libertarian and just the US culture mindset of who we do and30:35don't trust, but like that's where Bitcoin just creates so many different30:41possibilities and permutations of how we ultimately reach hyperitization. But at the end of the day, like it's still30:47moving forward. So that's why I remain I remain bullish all the time. I say I feel like I say that every episode. But30:53I think that that's just that's just another another kind of perspective that I I had never heard it phrased that way.30:59So I appreciate you I I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. And so Adam, you're so you're not just bullish on number go up. You're31:05bullish on medium of exchange here in the United States. That's that's what you're working on right now as well. Like I love how you mentioned merchants31:11are getting squeezed because I've been working with merchants for the last 15 years and I see that every day especially during COVID we saw merchants31:18just absolutely getting hammered and they need they need to be empowered. they need a lifeline. What was your aha31:24moment for you when you were like, man, I need to refocus my sight on the United States and really accelerate uh Bitcoin31:31payments and the medium of exchange era? It's a good question because I think I'm still figuring it out, but I don't know if there was a single aha moment. I31:39guess there maybe a couple. Again, I I kind of came about focus like, you know, not refocusing because I'm still focused31:46on supporting, you know, everything going on in Zambia, but um you know, I'm somebody who obviously loves to take on31:52a lot of different projects and keep myself busy. I was looking at POSOS terminals that might be able to service,31:58you know, tourist based businesses or local businesses that have a high volume in transactions in Zambia, you know, and32:04the the standard POS terminals in the space, you know, that are kind of Bitcoin focused to my knowledge right now are Bitcoin Eyes out of Bitcoin32:10Beach, Brazil, Musket out of the UK, and Apago out of Germany, who actually kind32:15of came this are coming to market with hardware and and actually, you know, something where you can process a Bitcoin payment with a terminal. and and32:22we all know that, you know, it's great if you're, you know, a single owner of a small shop and and you're, you know, one32:28employee and and you can have it on your phone, but that just doesn't work when you start to scale from a size32:34perspective. You know, you're you're not going to take payments on your phone as somebody with even 10 employees or maybe even three or four, right? Like maybe32:41the owner's not there that day and you have somebody watching the shop. are you going to leave your phone with them or it just creates and so I think where I32:49started going with that is that like okay I I started seeing these solutions I've started working with the the32:55gentleman out of Pago out of Germany to bring payments to the US at first we were looking to import their33:01hardwarebased solution but with the tariff fees kind of in in incoming right at that same time and and all the33:07challenges with that we really turned our sights on focusing on their enterprise solution um which could integrate with any US terminal, any any33:15payments processing hardware. And and at that point, it's just about enterprise sales. Are you proficient enough in33:22sales to discover what the customer needs, understand their goals, and offer33:27the right solution? And if you're not the right solution, you know, again, I just talked to a gentleman in professional services the other day, you33:34know, pointed him to Zapright because we are we're we're more of the point of sale lightning retailbased solution that33:39can integrate at the point of sale. But I think in Bitcoin because it's global because it serves a global market at33:46some point or so far we've been a little bit too focused on it's Bitcoin's33:51Bitcoin in and of itself is a great solution monetarily which it is but there is still a lot of software and33:59hardware that it needs to be integrated to in order to be a medium exchange. Um, and I I don't think people are patient34:05enough in that sense and or understand that it's it's right around the corner and and and people like the, you know,34:11Michael and Michael from Apago that I'm working with in Germany, they have they have a great software API key that we34:17can plug into any point of sale or any payments processing hardware. It's about getting sometimes it's about getting34:23some of them are open to my knowledge, some of them are more closed off. Um, but you know, so so we're going to have34:28to get permission with some and then we're going to have to go and build it for the others. But that's what it's about. It's about building the solutionsUnderstanding Merchant Needs in Bitcoin Payments34:35and in a sales capacity understanding what the right solutions are for what34:41merchant and what business. If you oversell and underdel, you're going to turn people off to to what you sold34:47them, right? And so as Bitcoiners, we need to stay cognizant that yes, the34:53monetary network and what the sound money provides is applicable to34:58everybody globally, but the specific integration of that from a network uh35:04productivity and efficiency perspective, different solutions and different businesses that are built on Bitcoin35:10that can integrate with existing hardware and software solutions, we need to be making sure that that we're35:15recommending the right solution. to the right and the right merchant and and that we're we're doing right by them35:23in that sense so that they have a seamless and an easy experience when35:28they're when they're taking on this new you know that's yeah that go ahead Jason but I35:35was just yeah that I love everything you just said I couldn't agree more 100% 100% I just uh I don't think people35:42are patient enough that's one thing I stuck out because as someone who like runs a Bitcoin payments advisory company35:48and and you know titled their podcast a medium of exchange. I'm obviously pretty pumped about merch adoption, but we're35:54early, right? We we are early and it's exciting to me to hear folks like35:59yourself that are that are smart in a business sense. They're not just they36:04haven't just read like books on economics. Merchants don't really care about economics. they just need to, you36:10know, process their payments and and get their money and, you know, sell their goods and services and so so you are um36:18I mean in person is starting to come, right? We've got like just this year we've got the 400 or so locations of36:23Steak and Shake. Uh how many locations that Sheets has? I don't know, a few hundred. Um and and you're you're36:31focusing on in-person retail Bitcoin lightning payments. Yeah. Yeah. at at the point I mean my36:38before all of this and and something we haven't talked about is my background is hospitality. I went to the University of36:43Delaware. I got a degree in hospitality management. I worked in restaurants throughout my entire high school and36:49college career to make money. I was a server, barback, bartender. Uh you name36:54it, I in the you know and then and then when I graduated from that, I went and worked one of the one of the biggest hotels in Indianapolis, the JW Marriott.37:01ran a $5 million restaurant there and and and then moved on into the sales department and sold conference and event37:07space for for the JW Marriott and Marriott in Denver. And so my background37:12is hospitality. Um my my passion is is hospitality. I still love it. My wife and I are are still big foodies and and37:19and love going out to to dine. And she's, you know, a wedding coordinator and works at a a wedding venue on the37:27Chesapeake River. When I think uh when I think myself of that, I want that experience at hospitality companies. I37:34want to be able to go and keep my hard money, keep my sound money, run my checking account out of Bitcoin and and37:40pay in Bitcoin, right? I think that's another thing is if if you're not you're still running your checking account in USD, you're still short Bitcoin. There's37:46probably not a ton of people running their their checking account out of Bitcoin yet, but I've I've moved to that in January. And I just to make it37:53seamless, I'm tired of converting back and, you know, bill paying, you know, through my credit cards. And I just want37:58to be able to just like a debit card payment. And even though I think it's analogous to a debit card payment, but a38:04debit card payment is still a debt based system, right? At the end of the day, the whole fiat system is debt based,38:10right? So you can say that the debit card is is lower fees and and more direct, but you're still operating in a38:16debt based system at that point because it's not the entire thing is founded on, you know, Keynesian economics and debt.38:22And so I want to stay within the sound money system and I'm going to work towards getting that ability to to make38:29those transactions in there. And so that's kind of what I'm fighting for. And I think it's not just what I'm38:34fighting for. I it it makes total sense for the merchants. When I went to the MWAA, which is the Midwest Acquirers38:40Association conference, and it was so so eye opening, what did they say the three problems were for for merchants, they38:47said it was high fees and high interchange fees and and just high cost in general to make a transaction, too38:54many intermediaries, non-instant settlement, you know, that it takes 48 settle and chargebacks and fraud. What39:00what does uh Bitcoin payments offer? Well, you know, offers lower fees, less intermediaries, instant settlements, and39:08and no chargebacks. I mean, you could still potentially have fraud, but no chargebacks, right? And so, all the39:14things that the merchants want or I'm hearing from the credit card processors that merchants want are available. It's39:21just about making sure that we again get them the right solution and and you know, listen, right? Listening and39:27sales, asking the right questions, waiting to pitch, right? you don't have to pitch right away. List understand39:34what the merchant is going through and try to find the right solution within Bitcoin that's going to work for them.39:40So that that's that's kind of where I'm at with things. Bitcoiners obviously are, you know, going to be pumped aboutLiving on a Bitcoin Standard39:47you focusing on accelerating Bitcoin payments, but I just want to step back for a second because I think for so many39:54folks like what you're doing is wild and crazy. Maybe not to a Bitcoiner, but it40:00sounds to me like you're you're you're trying to live on a what we call a Bitcoin standard and you're saving in Bitcoin. And just to clarify, did you40:07say you have like little to no dollars in your bank account? Yeah. No, I I have Chase from my bank40:13account. I still have the checking account, but I direct deposit into Bitcoin. And so I extend my credit a40:19little bit, you know, with my credit cards because I'm ultimately because so many payments still have to come through fiat. I'm still, you know, still have my40:26credit cards and I'm bill paying out a strike, but I'll I'll push that credit and I'll pay the credit card off when40:31when when the Bitcoin price is is doing well against the US dollar. And so, um,40:36you know, it's still a little trial run for me. I started that in January and and it's had its ups and downs, but it's40:41it's marginal. I mean, a couple percent here, couple percent there, and, you know, you you just got to keep an eye on the price and and pay the credit card40:48off when you have a good a nice jump in the price. And and it's it's been fairly painless. Now, it might be too risky for40:53some folks, and I totally understand that, especially when when things are still priced in USD, and that's what40:59they're looking at, but the volatility is dampening, you know, over time, and and you know, but yeah, I'm running my checking account um out of strikes41:05specifically. Yeah, that's that's good for you cuz I started kind of doing that same approach41:11over the last year, too, and getting like trying to the reverse and getting41:17on zero instead of getting off zero. uh and using Strikes Bill Pay, which has been just super seamless. And I I41:24actually just also want to call back what you said about paying on debit and using debit cards and and kind of how we41:31would want to use that, right? Like you want to pay you want to get away from the debt based system, but with the way41:37that our current financial system is structured is like if you're paying with things on a debit card, to your point,41:42you are you're losing because you're paying for those points that we're getting using our credit card. Whereas41:48with Bitcoin, you can pay with things on debit, but then you also don't have to worry about you're getting you're41:53getting your value sacked in the back end too because of inflation. So it like there is that drive where you have to42:00play the game because if not then you know that you're losing, right? Like if you're just holding cash, Bitcoiners42:05understand that they know that that they're losing. But if you're just holding cash and paying for everything on debit, then you're double losing, you42:12know? So it's like so it's like how can you how can you think logically in in42:18the best way to do that? And also just shout out to that indie JW Marriott because uh I went to school in the42:24Midwest. I went to Indiana University and spent some spent some fun times out in Indie as well. So um just had to just42:32had to give the shout out there. But I can totally tell that you have a hospitality background just in the way that you're uh kind of approaching the42:38problem because too often with you know depending on on the the type of person42:44and and their backgrounds they don't actually consider the second and third degrees of okay yeah you can tell42:50somebody to adopt Bitcoin but then what and what about the and what about the their their c or their employees? What42:56about their customers actually getting Bitcoin in their hands? You know, like if I'm a barista and somebody comes up43:02to me and says, "I want to pay in Bitcoin and I don't know how to pay. I don't know how to accept a Bitcoin payment." Then what was the point of43:07integrating Bitcoin into your business, right? So like having those different personas, having those different user43:13stories and actually playing out what that process looks like allows for43:19just a stronger foundation of ultimately implementation. And you know, I have a bit of a background not in hospitality,43:25but in kind of that change management type stuff, which I guess could could translate now that we're talking about it. But I just think that that's so cool43:32and how how we can use different people and different situations to make it make43:37sense for them in a variety of different ways. Yeah. Um, and to be fair, I mean, I I'd43:43love to not be using Strike. I'd love to be using Voltage and my own lightning node and run everything through Zeus and43:51and you know, but ultimately Strike offers a great service with being able to bill pay and and do that and until we43:56can get it where I can maybe keep my credit card for any anybody that doesn't have Bitcoin, you know, I can't wait for44:03these Square Terminals to come out where, you know, I'm going to be trying to target, you know, businesses that have Square Terminals. Um, and I think44:10there's a catalyst there from Square Sheets, Steak and Shake. People are noticing, right, Jason? I'm I'm sure you44:16would corroborate this. People on the merchant side and on the payments processing side and on the POS terminal44:22side, they're noticing these things, especially Square. Um, and and so, you know, we're getting there. I'd love to44:28see it and I hope that someday I can only use Strike when I need to exchange what very little US dollars I I have44:35left or maybe use it for direct deposit and then have my lightning node and and my onchain you know self-custody and all44:42that stuff where you know can continue to move away from the KYC and the um you44:47know and the custodial exchanges 100%. Yeah, I I've also been it's funny44:52the timeline, but like this year I've started to use the strike bill pay feature because I was keeping enough44:58money liquid in my bank account to and I ran the numbers and I'm like man I'm45:04missing out on like all this money is just sitting here in my bank account for liquidity just for like you know be a45:09middleman between payments and and it's just you know slipping right through my fingers each and every day and so it is45:17it is pretty cool to start making payments payments like fiat payments through Bitcoin. You know, Strike kind45:24of like has that roundabout way if like a merchant doesn't accept Bitcoin, you can still kind of give them your bank account numbers.45:29Yeah. I mean, and I totally agree with you, Adam, in terms of like would love to make it as self- sovereign as45:35possible, but also there is that balance and back to trade-offs as always, it always trickles down from economics.45:42And, you know, I mean, I had a friend who hit me up today and he's uh he received an offer for a new job.45:48Congrats to him. And he was like, I want to ask them if they could pay me in Bitcoin. And I was like, one, hell yeah.45:55And he was like, but what if they but like what if they say no or is there a way that I can get around it anyways? And I was like, dude, like it is so easy46:01on Strike to set up even a percentage to your direct deposit and they take care of all of it for you. And like I mean46:08this is not a paid advertisement. I'm just a happy customer because I've been able to utilize these features and it46:14really allows you to not let that sand or those sats slip through your fingers46:20like you were saying Jason cuz I mean I remember seeing Mer's he had a you know46:25Twitter video in his closet and he was like my my purchase or my cost of living46:30has gone down 50% in the last year and I was like I wish I could do that. I just don't trust myself or have the time to46:36like know how and when and all that stuff and the taxes and whatever. But then if you give me a service at46:42reasonable price to deal with all that for me, then I'm I'm interested and then46:47I can feel confident to to take that dive in. So you're not saying that his he reduced46:52his expenditures by 50%. You're saying like his his because his purchasing power doubled because he was saving in46:58Bitcoin. Correct. Correct. Yeah. just clarify for some of these47:03listeners because it's I think sometimes it's like you hear that and you're like oh wow they were really able to like cut47:08their mortgage in half and like all their you know expenses like really they must have had a lot of expenses and they really reduced that but that that's47:15where Bitcoin comes in and and to even clarify that further is47:21that's not just because like which yes Strike is a operating business and it47:26seems like they're doing well and growing but again it's not like he just won the lottery. Like he was just47:32holding Bitcoin and over time his Bitcoin increased double versus what the47:39price of his cost of living was. So everything got 50% cheaper by just47:44holding Bitcoin. And then he's able to focus on his business, grow his business, and then from there you get a flywheel, which is what we ultimately47:51all stay humble and stack sats to do and by providing a good service to to happy47:57customers. So, it's it's been a pretty pretty large inspiration. And that actually kind of transitions me into,48:03you know, my question for you, Adam. It's I know you mentioned I forget the I forget the name of the libertarian that48:09you mentioned at the top, but I am curious to hear some of those people who have inspired you. And maybe they're maybe they're Bitcoiners, maybe they're48:14not. Maybe they're libertarians, maybe they're not, but just people uh who you kind of look to for both your48:21philanthropic work as well as this work you're doing with OPGO. Yeah. um well, one, God and and theInfluences and Inspirations in Bitcoin Advocacy48:28church and and that's kind of what inspired philanthropy and and giving back from the beginning is is tithing48:33and and growing up with that that standard. It's actually interesting because I think I was going to go back um and talk a little bit about the you48:40know what you talked about with with the debit side and it was so interesting because that's like the whole Dave Ramsey thing is is pay you know with48:47debit cards and and don't run up your credit cards and it's like hey Dave48:52you're still operating in a debt based system if you pay with a debit card. And again we were going through a whole48:58series at my church on you know uh money. It was actually really interesting. It happened a couple months ago and you know I had just started49:04going to this this church here when we moved back to Delaware. Um and it was so funny the tentacles that were weaved in49:10of of what you know how negatively that is viewed by Christians and um and it's49:17like the whole system is based on this guys like the whole system is based on debt just from the pure foundational49:24levels. And so I've talked to my church and and the leadership there a little bit about they currently accept Bitcoin49:31donations through and given, but they're just converting it back to fiat and they're paying a 3% or whatever that that cost is. And I'm like, "Hey, why49:38don't we get an and I'd like to tithe in Bitcoin, but I'd like you to keep it in Bitcoin and then see what we can do with49:43it in Bitcoin, right? Um, and let's get out of this depate system if if it's not encouraged by the church. let's think49:50about this a little bit differently and be and then you know and I to be fair you know I don't know I don't think that49:55those opportunities have been there for a long time and and so I think organizations like a church are still50:01trying to work with large congregations and and lots of people in leadership and and you know maybe haven't investigated50:06stuff like this but they're most of them are committed to doing good work in their community and giving back and and and it will evolve in that way over over50:14Yeah. So, so the church, you know, again, Mises and and Henry Hlett, I I'm50:19not a big reader, to be fair. I haven't read all of the Murray Rothbards and Ludwing Van Mises books and and all that50:24stuff, but you know, I I I like to listen to podcasts and and I kind of absorb everything through there. I I50:30don't I love to listen to audio books, but I just have a little ADD and and so I I like the kind of short sprints of of50:36podcasts and stuff. Um, and so I've listened to a lot of libertarian thought and Austrian economics through through50:42that. But I have to be fair I haven't gone back and you know re read all the philosophy and and and read all of the50:48books. But the one I did read that was really impactful for me was economics one lesson by Henry Hlett. Um it's a50:53short read and really the thing that framed that all to me is that government can't account for supply and demand.51:00It's it's impossible for them to count supply and demand because their supply is all based on coercion. And so at the51:07end of the day if they can't account for supply and demand they can't properly allocate. And that's what really clicked to me because as a young as a young51:14teenager and as a young adult I was always like my question was like why doesn't government a government operate like a business? Why does an why can't51:20we get it to operate like a business? Well, it's impossible for it to operate like a business because it can't account51:26for supply and demand and therefore it's naturally inefficient. And so that that was economics in one lesson really drove51:32that home for me. I love um what Guy Swan's doing over Bitcoin Audible. I I listen to his podcast a lot and he's51:39really inspiring on not being too technical but being, you know, pretty approachable from a non-technical person51:45but still trying to understand things. I'm really inspired by Alex Gladstein and the Human Rights Foundation and and51:50the work they do. Um they they're I read their newsletter every week and and I try to repost stuff on theirs to to my51:57just my family and friends on how this impacts human rights globally. Um and the good work that Bitcoin is doing, you52:04know, on human rights globally. And I'm also inspired by Peter McCormack and the work he's doing in Bedford and the local52:09community. Again, when we talk about locally focused initiatives and locally run businesses and and taking the52:17Bitcoin that we've um that we've brought on and then repurposing it to impact the52:22local community. I just love what he what he's doing over there. And you know, obviously what point Bitcoin did is is probably one of the biggest52:28podcasts in the space, but I I've I've gone over to a real Bedford game and and52:34it was it was lots of fun. And um I you know, I'm just inspired by how he's kind52:39of taken what he did in a podcasting world, but really actually I think the more inspiring thing for for me for him52:45is is what he's doing in his local town. Um and and that's that's super inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. And then just all52:52the people at um you know that are connected with Bitcoin Beach and and Anita Pasha's work in in Africa and and52:59there there's too many to name but you know Herman Vivier from Bitcoin Accazi has been really helpful for me in kind53:06of working on this Bitcoin Victoria Falls project and Mike Peterson from Bitcoin Beach and those folks there. So53:12you know I John Denah from Me Premier Bitcoin as well. Um, so just just everybody on those teams is just doing53:18amazing work and um, you know, while it's a lot of it is nonprofit, I think it's also very related to the merchant53:24exch or the medium exchange side of Bitcoin and you know that's that is what that's what inspires me is both uh,53:30philanthropy and and medium exchange and numbers going to go up naturally. It's just uh, it it53:35that's awesome. That's incredible. Thank you very much. I Well, real quick, I don't I53:42don't think I'm the right person just to go back to Dave Ramsey for one second. I don't think I'm the right person to53:47orange bill Dave Ramsey. I've met him. I grew up in the same town that his office is in. Uh but he's such an advocate for53:54nondebased homes and so a non-debt-based economy.53:59I've heard him, you know, talk about how incredibly risky and clearly he doesn't54:06understand Bitcoin. It's to him it's not hard sound money. To him it's a speculative investment. They're54:11radically different things and he doesn't understand it yet. Go ahead, Jack. And well, yeah. And I think when you54:17have, you know, like these titans of investing or titans of saving the Dave Ramsey, Warren Buffett, Charlie Mungers,54:24like these people who have written literal like almost bibles in a sense of54:29how to how to do personal finance. Those things are all correct. Everything54:34they say is correct. it's just no longer correct for the time that we're in. If54:39you take their foundational principles and apply it to Bitcoin, then yes, 100%54:45of the time. So like I have a bunch of friends where I try to orange pill them and they say, "Oh, I just invest in the S&P and this is what Uncle Warren says54:52or Uncle Charlie and like that's going to be how I want to do it because they're a lot smarter than I am." And54:58I'm like, "Same, but I also just save in Bitcoin because Warren Buffett's how55:03old? He's not going to understand Bitcoin. It's just I'm sorry. He he spent a majority of his life without the55:09internet. So why would I expect him to understand Bitcoin? He didn't he Warren Buffett is one of the greatest investors55:15of all time, but he missed on the tech bubble because he's not a tech guy. He is a value investor. So it's just like55:23he's done an incredible job staying in his lane and and teaching that out and educating, you know, in some of the55:30greatest like shareholder speeches ever. And if you just take that and apply it to the 21, then you're setting yourself55:36up for, you know, eventual financial independence. At least that's the idea. And that's kind of how I rationalize55:42this for, you know, quote unquote smart people who don't get Bitcoin because they are smart. It's just they don't55:48it's not the arena that they're playing in. Um, and Bitcoin is a entirely different arena because it's not it's55:55not a debt based on a debt based system. So that's just kind of how I how I rationalize that and how I actually tell56:02people that I'm more riskaverse in my opinion than those who are short Bitcoin by not owning.56:08I think the thing that if if it's going something's going to orange pill them if56:14at all I think it's the analogy and explaining the ledger. I find that the56:20gold analogy is worn out and doesn't make sense because the physical characteristics of gold. I explained56:27Bitcoin as a ledger to my 80-year-old grandmother and she's like, I don't know why somebody else didn't just tell me56:33that. It makes sense because if you define ledger like let's say let's role play for a second. Okay, I'm grandma.56:39Yeah. What is Bitcoin? I just if you think about what predates gold, how did people used to operate56:47before they had a physical form of money that they were transacting? They just wrote who owed what to whom on a ledger.56:54It was an accounting based system. And so when you think about the characteristics of money and the history57:00of money, what predates gold in and what was money is accounting and writing57:05things down on a ledger of whom, a what to whom. And if we go back to or if we just explain to them that Bitcoin's57:12characteristics actually predate the characteristics of gold and go back to a57:17ledgerbased system while keeping the finitness of gold, it's a lot easy for57:23easier for people to understand that at the end of the day, this is just a ledger. Um, and it just is keeping57:30record of whom owes what to whom, right? And so I find that that analogy is57:36actually a lot more powerful than the gold analogy. Um, and and resonates with people. You know, I' I'd love to see57:43somebody take that analogy to Peter Schiff. Who knows if he would even listen because he doesn't listen to57:48anything. He just, you know, immediately jumps into He's built his whole brand on anti-co.57:53Yeah, exactly. But I I still have never seen anybody challenge him with that analogy of the ledger, you know, the58:00ledger analogy. But irregardless, I mean, I think it's a good I think if something's going to, you know, orange58:05pill a Dave Ramsey or or a Peter Schiff or or somebody that's just so resistant is like I I think we've got to start58:12using this ledger analogy and and explaining it in that sense a little bit more. Um, and you know, in small sample58:20sizes, I've seen it work. So, I mean, that's at least at least something. Yeah. The blockchain is the modernday58:26digital version of a ledger like Yeah. Um, okay. Can I ask one more one last58:32question? I know we're coming up on time, but Adam, I'm curious to know what you think the next, let's say, five58:37years looks like with Bitcoin adoption and Bitcoin payments. I think we're right on the precipice of58:43a massive boom in Bitcoin payments. I think you get Square in the room, I mean, and their reach, uh, you start to58:50see pe people start to see it, right? You know, people haven't seen it. They haven't seen it at a merchant. They58:56haven't seen it take place. People are starting gonna start to get curious when you have somebody like a square. You're59:01already seeing them start to get curious. Wait till 2026 when this is actually at terminals and rolled out.59:07You know, so many people might see it at a stake and chic. So many people might see it as sheets. When you have you have59:13the amount of POS terminals in the industry that Square does and people start to see payments taking place in59:19Bitcoin on these Square terminals, they're really going to peak up. Because when I talk to my friends, they all say,59:25"Well, I can't I can't do anything with it, right?" You know, because they what do they have it on? They have it on their Coinbases or their Robin Hoods or59:32whatever. And hopefully they have it on a cash app or a Strike. That'd be preferred because then they can make a lightning payment out of it. Um, you59:38know, but what when I was on the golf course the other day, um, and I was talking with my buddy who was out with59:43us who was about to do contracting work in my bathroom and said, "Hey, can I pay you in Bitcoin?" My two other friends59:48laughed and was like, "Well, he's got to pay his family. What's he going to do with the Bitcoin?" You know what I mean? And it makes sense like if I'm going to,59:54you know, if I'm one month of his income for the year, you know, again, yeah, is59:59he saving that all? No, probably not, right? And so, can he then go turn around and do something with it? I think1:00:05you're going to see the curiosity of your everyday person really1:00:11start to hit that hockey stick in in 2026 and 2027 once we get some once we1:00:16get Square rolled out and and the interest is just going to go from there. you know, that's that's one to three1:00:22years. We'll see. Five years is hard to predict, right? Um, but I think you'll have a lot more. Again, Jason, you know,1:00:27the you know, the payment space, but the software and hardware side, there's not a a million different vendors, right? If1:00:34we can get some, you know, two, three, four big vendors, um, you know, beyond Square rolling this out, um, you know,1:00:42we we've got a really strong opportunity there to, you know, all all my payments1:00:47are on a spot-on or a Clover or a Square like, you know, like 80 90% of them, right? They're all on these these these1:00:53these terminals. And so, you know, we got Square checked off. Um, we got more work to do. I'm working on it now as we1:01:00speak. And we'll get there. Thank you for your We'll get there. 100% 100% bullish on payments. Awesome.1:01:08All right. So, Adam, where do you want folks uh anyone that wants to learn more about Apago, about Freehaven, about1:01:16Bitcoin Victoria Falls, about you personally, um that you're you know, things that you're up to, where do they1:01:22go? Yeah, Kalper Tweets is my ex. I'm at adamnostster.fan. Bitcoin Vic Vicf Falls1:01:28uh is our ex. And then uh Bitcoin Victoria Falls at nost.com for our1:01:33Noster. Freehaven's got fhciisambia.org. A pago is the German company I'm working1:01:39with on Bitcoin payments. I think it's a pago.com. And yeah, if you have any connections within the merchant space,1:01:47POS terminal space, uh and and you want to bring, you know, Bitcoin payments on specifically for retail, we're again1:01:54we're we're lightning only. We're focusing, you know, at the point of sale and and retail and and hospitality and1:01:59stuff along those lines. You can you can reach me at adampartner-apo.com1:02:05um and shoot me an email there. Awesome. And just to clarify, it's a pago.comin1:02:10for the English version because I kept going to the German version being like, I I don't read this language. I don't1:02:16know what this says. So, awesome. Awesome. All right, Adam, thank1:02:21you so much for joining us. Thank you, my friend. Thank you, guys. Keep up keep up the good work.