0:00We wanted money literacy to be taught to our children because we met at business school and we both came out of it 0:06feeling like we still didn't know how money worked. If you're trying to reach all people, i.e. half of them women, uh 0:14we just need to reach them the way they need to hear things. So from that I was 0:20inspired to start Orange Hatter because I wanted women being taught about Bitcoin women style. Your self-care is 0:28number one because you can't pour out of an empty cup. So, we're not telling our kids to be self-sacrificial and never Welcome + Tali’s work (Free Market Kids, HODL UP)0:35take care of themselves, always looking outward because that's not ultimately a healthy thing to do either.0:42[Music]0:50Welcome to Media Bump Exchange, the podcast where we spotlight business owners building on a Bitcoin standard.0:55This week we've got Tally Lindberg, the creative force behind Free Market Kids and the game Hodddle Up. She's an author 1:03and a podcaster and a homeschooling mom and the list goes on. Uh her work though is not just about explaining Bitcoin.1:10It's about weaving financial sovereignty and financial literacy into the fabric 1:16of everyday life. uh and that would be the case for parents, for children, and really anyone wanting to reclaim agency 1:23over their money and their education. Tali, thank you uh for joining us. Welcome to Media of Exchange. It is an 1:29honor to have you with us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.1:34So, before we get in, you you've got all these different hats that you wear. What have you been up to and what are you up 1:40to these days? These days I'm very busy with a project I call the public and wave project and Pebble & Wave: parenting before money education1:48what I'm doing is I'm taking sort of three step back from money education and 1:55addressing the very very important foundation of2:00a thriving human existence which is having a solid level of sense of 2:07selfworth which I believe really starts from the parental relationship. ship, which is why I wanted to start there 2:14before we jump right into talking about what's going on with money. That's 2:19that's my main focus. I do parent coaching and I also do2:25public speaking raising awareness and um of course working on the children's 2:31books that teach money literacy and basic traditional virtues 2:38like uh integrity, honesty, creativity, self-reliance, self- responsibilities, 2:43those types of things. And um yeah, feel free to ask me about anything. I I will 2:50tell you more as we go on. Thank you. So, I have three kids.2:56What I This is a very selfish question right off the bat, but uh I don't have 3:01any of your books. Maybe I should get your books. What What ages are they written for? They're they're written specifically for Kids’ books + the “Super K” confidence framework3:08early readers. So, the font is very big. I think it's a 18 point. So, it's very 3:14very easy for them to read the words if they're ready for that. If not, it's illustrationheavy. I really want the 3:20books to be conversation starters between parent and child. And in every book, there is a point in the story 3:27where the boy faces a dilemma and he changes into his superuit because it is 3:33an internal struggle. And of course, he does the right thing. And then he journals about it at the end of the 3:38book. And what I the call to action for every reader is for them to turn around, 3:44look at their own lives, and see the moment in time when they're the hero and then be able to jot that down because 3:50ultimately what I'm trying to do is to build their self-confidence. Yeah. So, it goes back to what you were Sovereignty, self-reliance, and why people resist Bitcoin 3:57saying about coaching parents and self-worth. Uh would it be safe to say that if you 4:04don't have a self like a strong sense of self-worth and self-identity then you 4:09maybe uh maybe that's a prerequisite to understanding money and 4:16the importance of of how you view money. Yes, I I think you nailed it right on 4:22the head. That's exactly what I have been trying to uh push for is the 4:29concept that before we talk about money at all. First of all, for a person to be sovereign as 4:35we talk about in the Bitcoin space and to have self-reliance, they have to have a level of personal 4:42belief and integrity in order to stand on that to think that they are not only 4:47worthy but also capable of being sovereign. If they feel unworthy or they 4:53feel like they cannot handle it, like they're weak, then of course they're going to want Big Brother to take care 4:59of them. That's just natural, right? So I and you know, this idea came to me 5:05after about 3 years of trying to educate people about money and not understanding 5:10why we can't get the message through. I know a lot of Bitcoiners are just desperately wanting their families and 5:16friends to come to Bitcoin the same way they did. And why on earth are they not seeing all the fallacies we're 5:24experiencing in our current monetary system? Why are they not seeing it? Why are they not seeing what we're seeing?5:29Right? But ultimately, how we see the world is how we see ourselves. There's a filter. You know, 5:37every second of the day we're bombarded by billions of input. We can only focus 5:42on very little. So, as Bitcoiners, we've honed in on a few, but the people we're 5:48trying to reach, they're still looking at something else. And the reason they're looking at something else is because they're still seeing the world 5:55through the filter of someone else needs to take care of me because they have been trained that way. That um money is 6:01what it is and I just have to deal with it and roll with it. Therefore, they're sort of passive victims, you know, in 6:08this in this system. They can't do anything about it. And until they have the self-confidence to number one 6:13question and number two think that they can do anything to change anything, 6:19it's really a moot point for us to say what about the Bitcoin standard.The Hero Journal Method (how it works)6:24Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if if if I am feeling kind of apathetic, I have 6:33uh maybe a sense of entitlement or or just a frankly just a 6:40lack of confidence, no sense of selfworth, then why do I need 6:45sovereignty? The government can just take care of me because there's really it's almost like a nihilistic view. Um 6:52why would I want sovereignty? because I don't want to be responsible. I've been taught my whole life to bring my problem 6:59to somebody else. Right? So, for example, when you see little kids in preschool and they're on the playground, 7:06if they get into a disagreement, what are they told to do by their teachers and parents?7:11Bring your disagreement to an adult. What is that telling them? You can't handle it. And then you 7:18proceed from there to elementary school. If you feel like somebody has said something mean to you, what do you what 7:24are you told to do? Bring it to the teacher. Don't handle it yourself. Why? You can't handle it because the other 7:30person might hurt you or you might hurt the other person. So all through school, they're just told over and over again, 7:37bring it to somebody else. Bring it to somebody else. Meaning you're not sovereign. Meaning you're not capable of 7:43solving your own problems. So they become an adult. The problems are even bigger. The consequences are more 7:49extensive. Especially when we're talking about money, right? If I save $10,000 7:54and lose my keys and I have nobody to call, that's not safe for me. I'm not going to 8:00go that route. So, I can see why the progression is like that. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost a 8:09a a devaluing and like you're you're elevating that individual and saying 8:14like no, you have value, you have worth and you can take responsibility 8:21of something like the keys to your Bitcoin. Uh and8:27that's really cool. How do you how do you teach that to parents and 8:32children? Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that. So I came up with a method I call the hero journal method and it's based on the 8:39character in the books and his name is K. K A Y the book series is called is 8:46called Super K. So K has some kind of experience in every 8:52story. At the end of the day at the end of the book he always goes back and he goes over the events and he writes down 9:01three things. one, what he did to make a difference to someone else, animal, 9:07environment, yourself, and draw a picture and identify your superpower.9:13So, think about it this way. You have a little four-year-old, right? Mostly, we think about four-year-olds as not being super capable. You know, they may or may 9:20not be potty trained yet. They're still learning manners. They probably can't tie their shoes, that kind of thing.9:25However, even at four years old, they can be a hero to someone. So, for example, if they have a house pad, 9:32right, and they see that the the dog is is uh thirsty and the water bowl is empty, they might just pour their sippy 9:39cup in there for the dog to have a little drink. Well, it's not a big thing. It's it's a passing thing, but to 9:46the dog who's thirsty, that moment meant something. You were heroic to that dog.9:52So, what do we do at the end of the day before you go to sleep? Identify it, right? Draw a picture, 10:00maybe a dog or a bowl or water. Write one sentence or the parent writes the sentence but the child dictates and then 10:06identify your superpower. So in that case it could be that you notice with your eyes that you you know like you 10:14have a love in your heart. Um you have your hand that pou the water. Okay. So the one day is done and that's just a 10:20passing moment that happened over 5 seconds. The next day, you notice that the little 10:26four-year-old runs up to daddy after a long day of work, wraps his arms around daddy, and says, "Hey, daddy, welcome 10:32home. I missed you so much." And then runs back to whatever he was doing, playing or little Matchbox cars or 10:39something like that. Passing moment didn't last 3 seconds, but to the dad who came home exhausted, who was hugged, 10:46that was heroic. That was refreshing for the dad. So, at the end of the night, you identify it. You draw a picture. You 10:53write a sentence, you identify the superpower. Could be his arms, could be his legs, he ran up to dad. Could be um 10:59his eyes, he saw dad. It could be anything. His words, you know. So if you think about it, you do that and it's 11:06like the compound effect and the layering effect. So superpower and making a difference, superpower making 11:11different, superpower making, and day after day after day after day. So imagine that over time they build this 11:20unshakable level of self-confidence in the fact that they can and do make a 11:27difference to to the world. Think about how many people today don't 11:34believe that about themselves. And in that way it's very simple. It's not even five minutes a day. It's just us paying 11:40attention. And that's the way I believe is the easiest way, the most um 11:46non-intrusive way for busy parents to help their kids really build that up. And I feel like this could be helpful 11:52not just for my kids, but for me, too. Uh so, okay. So, you write down what's 11:57something that you did today for someone else and identify or yourself. Okay.12:04Mhm. What's something that you did today for someone else or yourself? And then what is your superpower? And that may be 12:13I had empathy for someone else today. I fed my pet. I whatever it is.12:22And it's not like asking kids to do a gratitude journal because that requires 12:28thinking. Then you have to write sentences. You got to worry about spelling and punctuation and all of 12:34those things. No. Draw a stick figure. Doesn't matter. Have mom and dad write it and you just trace the words. doesn't 12:40matter. It's the fact that you're identifying it day after day after day that counts. So, I always remind the 12:46parents that understand this is not a homework assignment. You're not grading 12:51them for their artistic abilities. You're not grading them for their ability to spell or write letters the right way or the wrong way. Doesn't 12:57matter at all. This is supposed to be a warm and fuzzy right before bed 13:03reinforcement. And it's very powerful. What I have seen13:08some families notice is that their kids normally would be burying their face 13:14either in a book or a phone or iPad or whatever they they choose to have entertaining themselves, right? But once 13:20they start this habit, what they start to do is they start to look for ways 13:25that they can do something good so that they can write about it at night. So in 13:31that way you're indirectly encouraging them to notice the world, notice the people around them and care about the 13:39things that they notice around them. And that's a very kind of intrinsic natural response to just doing this uh hero 13:45journal project. So much of life is it's very easy for so Compassion + self-care for kids and parents13:51much of life to just be about me. Like we're humans. We're human nature is just thinking about ourselves. One of the 13:57things that I personally through my faith really appreciate about prayer is it it's a you take a moment and you get 14:04your mind off yourself and you think about others and you um put your attention on others uh around the you 14:11know the world or within your sphere of influence and this feels like a great 14:16ritual to every evening take a moment and get your mind off yourself and your 14:22selfish needs and desires and think about others and it Well, yeah, go ahead. I I just want to I just want to qu put 14:29one caveat in there. Um, I think a lot of people when they think loving kindness that it is only outward, but 14:36what I teach even with a hero journal is your self-care is number one because you 14:42can't pour out of an empty cup. So, we're not telling our kids to be self-sacrificial and never take care of 14:48themselves, always looking outward because that's not ultimately a healthy thing to do either. which is why I uh I 14:56added the self-care before when you were describing the process. The way they can take care of themselves 15:02are very simple. Again, I'm addressing kids that are four, five, six years old, right? What can they do to self-care?15:08Well, I'm not asking them to make their bed. That to me is not necessarily self-care.15:14That's more like self-discipline. I'm more talking about instead of drinking sweetened juice, you drink water.15:19Instead of sitting inside, you go sit outside. instead of um standing around, you run around. Like that kind of 15:25self-care, you brush your teeth without your mom and dad telling you to. What I want to really highlight here is that 15:34we should go into as parents, right? We should go into this project with the assumption that it's not that we're 15:40giving the kids a list of things that they can do. It's that we are looking for things that they're already doing 15:45naturally. The assumption is that all human beings at one time or another show love and 15:52compassion because it is our nature. Sure, we have selfish moments, right?15:58Sure, we have moments when we get angry and you know difficult emotions come out. But no, everybody has some moments 16:06in the day when they're naturally just giving. So, a little three-year-old can 16:11help a little 2-year-old up from a fall on the playground without anybody going, 16:16"Oh, go help the little kid up." Some kids might notice, some kids might not notice, but there are kids who would 16:22notice, and there are kids who will run up and and help. And you don't have to necessarily, 16:28especially in the beginning, right? You don't just don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to give them a list of 16:35things they can do. All you're doing is training yourself to look for the things 16:40that they're doing that's already right and good and making a difference. And then as you train them, they will find 16:47it themselves. And eventually, you know what they say, you see what you expect to see. And what you put your focus on 16:54amplifies. So what we're training our kids to do is notice what they do, right? And what and 17:00notice other people and you're amplifying that. And um I think it was 17:06the the Holy L um Daly Lama said that the key to happiness is compassion.17:14But we're not going to use those big words to the kids, right? They're four, five, and six. But they would that's what we're training them to do is to see 17:22people, make a difference, and know that you can. And that's the goal.17:29It's almost like it's already there. It's just an illuminating uh like getting that aha moment, putting 17:36the light and their attention on that compassion and self-care for themselves 17:41and for others. That's awesome. And I feel like I feel like uh I don't know if 17:47a if a book for for adults is in the works or not, but it should be. I would I'd read that.17:53I have one that's called my my buddy and me and it's the hero journal and you pass 17:59it back and forth between child and parent because parents need encouragement too. Well, how many times do we get to the 18:05end of the day and all we remember is the number of times we lost it. Yeah. And yelled at our kids, right?18:12Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but we don't see the moments when we were compassionate and we cuddled and 18:17and we wiped their tears away and we helped them up from a cut and put a band-aid on their boo boo and all that 18:22stuff. We don't remember those. When we went to when we go to bed, it's always, man, I did this. I shouldn't have done 18:29that. And, you know, like the list goes on and on. So, I think it's a really great uh team effort, honestly.Tali’s Bitcoin journey (HODL UP → rabbit hole)18:36Yeah, that's a really cool exercise to go back and forth with the book. I'll have to I'll have to order that. Okay. So, 18:43you're you're you're working on this. Um what's the name of the company that you're working on right now?18:50Pebble and Weave. Pebble and Wave. Okay. I want to take us take a moment and just 18:56zoom out. Talk about what you're up to right now. Um, and I'd like to hear a 19:01little bit about your backstory and you are building the future of our kids 19:09uh today. Um, but how did you, you know, what what inspired you to get to this 19:16point? Um, what was your journey? Um, what sparked this mission for you and 19:22and how did you get into Bitcoin as well? There's a lot of questions. I shall start at the beginning.19:28That's true. That's yeah, that's that's too many questions. But yeah, just I will just What sparked 19:34Yeah. What sparked this mission that you're on? You're on a really important mission. What sparked it?19:39It it's it's I've gone through a lot of pivots. I started in the Bitcoin space 19:45very very unwillingly kind of forced and pushed in by my husband Scott who 19:51founded Free Market Kids. And um originally our idea was that we wanted 19:58money literacy to be taught to our children because we met at business school and we both came out of it 20:03feeling like we still didn't know how money worked. And it wasn't until a lot 20:09more people were talking about Bitcoin a few years back and he heard it on one podcast than another that he started to 20:15look into it. We both knew about cryptocurrencies. We both knew Bitcoin 20:20existed, but we just didn't understand it at all in the beginning because we're just we're non-technical and it was for 20:27me at least it was extremely difficult to wrap my head around how zeros and ones can be money. I just I couldn't do 20:34it. Well, he spent a uh after he he became interested in Bitcoin, he tried to get 20:40me interested and he would send me uh books, articles, podcasts, and um I just 20:46kept saying, "You know what? I I don't have time." Honestly, at the time, my 20:52four kids were getting ready to graduate high school. I homeschooled them. So, I was solely responsible for providing 20:59their transcript, helping them with college research, and then going through the whole application process. I was 21:04very very busy and that was the time when he came to me and said what about Bitcoin and I said please don't bother 21:10me but he wouldn't give up. So eventually he he decided to try to explain 21:17blockchain to me with physical pieces on the table because I just could not understand 21:24the concept at all. He just sent me videos and I was like I don't understand it. He sent me books. I'm like I don't 21:30want to read books. So he finally was just like, "Okay, forget everything I've ever sent you. Let me explain to you on 21:35the table." So he just created a blockchain and showed me how how uh the transactions moved through the 21:41blockchain. That was actually the first prototype that became huddle up. Once I understood 21:48it enough to say fine, I will read one darn book for you. That was my negotiation, right? You keep forcing 21:55this thing on me, I will read one thing for you. So I did. I read it's uh Bitcoin hard money you can't f with 22:04okay there was a a lot of cussy in the book a lot of cussy in the book and and it just 22:10it was a it was written in a very emotional way and I was so angry as I was listening to the book in sections I 22:18would listen to one section and I have to turn it off for weeks because I was like everything I thought was true was 22:25false and Scott and I are both very highly educated hated, right? We He went to West Point, we went to Yale, all of 22:31that stuff. And to realize looking back at all the sacrifices we made, all the lies we believed in, all the the prices 22:38we paid. I was so angry. It took me months to finish that book. And by the end of the book, I was fully down the 22:44rabbit hole. And I said, "Why don't more people know about this?" So during that 22:52time, he he did finish huddle up. He had a prototype and I said, "Let's just drive everywhere that people will allow 22:57us to come because if Yes. I I'm sorry to interrupt. I I'm just curious. Some Money printing, Cantillon effect, and the anger catalyst23:04of I just want to press on that frustration that you felt for a second 23:09here because some of our listeners do not necessarily identify as a Bitcoiner who 23:17they who gets it and have read all the books and understand everything within you know if you were to summarize 23:24within like one or two or three bullet points what were the core frustrations 23:30and I know that it's a big it's hard to summarize Bitcoin And it's hard to, you know, distill it down, but for you 23:37specifically in your journey, what was it that made you so angry to the point where you had to take months off from 23:45reading this book? It was mostly about money printing and 23:50how it trickles down from the decision to print to the customer.23:57So you and I both understand that there's a huge discrepancy when they when they ease the money supply. What 24:04does that mean exactly? It goes to the banks, right? It goes to the banks in low interest rate. But the lower 24:10interest rate never passes down to regular ordinary citizens, right? So if 24:16two people are going in let's say to purchase investment properties, one 24:22person has the resource through whatever contacts he24:28has to cheat debt versus a regular person coming in with money he saved 24:34with his sweat and tears, right? After tax money and they're going after the 24:39same property over and over and over again. who's going to have the upper hand, who can 24:46move faster, who's going to have a higher profit margin, and then the reward then compounds. It's 24:53it's like a the trajectory goes like this. And24:59I didn't understand that I was going to go into investment banking literally as just like a cog in the machine in the in 25:06the process, right? I was I was going to be preparing the pitches. I was going to run the numbers to make the deals and 25:12everything, but I did not understand where the money came from and how unfair that system was. And as much as I 25:18thought, oh, an investment banker can go in and make money, I didn't understand the scope of the difference between the 25:26upper upper echelon to the rest of the people. I was just a 25:32highly paid worker. I was still in a different space, right?25:37And then of course you go down a little bit further in the uh socioeconomic levels and then you you start to see 25:44this this disparity is just absolutely unimaginable. I understand then why people were angry 25:52because I didn't understand why people were angry before then. I also bought into the belief that you go to college 25:58you get a good education and you come out you have job security. Well, we did that and then as soon as we graduated, 26:04major layoffs were literally swept around across the country 26:09and honestly I did not understand how the booms and busts happened in the 26:16in the economy. It was explained to us as corporate greed and um you know 26:22foreign currency policy and maybe it's the president who's in place who should 26:27not be in place with the different economic policies. No, all those things were just distractions and that's what I 26:34was so angry about because we were guised as highly educated people but we 26:40knew nothing. That's what made me so angry. So I guess just to try and summarize the 26:48Cantalon effect where the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. Uh the people closer to the 26:53money printer are the ones reaping all the rewards. And then you have regular 27:00folks who I mean my kids are going to be fine, but um I feel for my kids 27:07generation in terms of like home ownership and the their inability to 27:13ever keep up. And um those who have assets, their net worth goes up and they 27:19turn on the money printer and they go, "Look how well we're doing for America. America's getting richer." But the 27:24non-ownership class gets left behind and uh it's a yeah it's a it's a very broken 27:32system. Okay, I want to go back if you can rewind back to your story uh and hit play on that.Teaching Bitcoin to women + moms (Orange Hatter)27:38Yeah, we just started traveling. We started traveling to share our game because I figure if my husband can 27:43convince me about to look at Bitcoin anyway, then other Bitcoiners can 27:49convince their loved ones to look at Bitcoin. Of course, everybody has their own journey and they have to gather 27:54their own information, but we thought that the game would be a great conversation opener that's 28:00non-confrontational cuz a lot of people when they hear Bitcoin, it's like, "Oh, no, no, don't tell us about Bitcoin."28:06Right? And everywhere we travel, what I noticed was that in all the rooms, there were very, very, very few women. And 28:13when there were women, if they were the coders, that was fine. But if they went as spouse or partner, they generally sat 28:22in the corner and most of them scrolled on the phone because they were there physically to support their spouse or 28:28partner, but they did not really understand it. Then I was trying to figure it out. And I realized that if I 28:35had not been going to these places with Scott, I wouldn't go to those places either because it was very, very 28:41masculine. And it's not that the men folk are not friendly. Everybody's super 28:47friendly. Everybody in their in the depth of their soul are 28:53wanting to change the world for a better place. However, men communicate differently than women. That's just a 28:59fact. I compare it as cigar and whiskey versus29:05tea and biscuit. We like more touchyfey kind of talk first. Like warm us up 29:11first before you tell me about something that's going to change or challenge my perception of the world, right? Give me 29:17some foreplay like warming up before you get down to business. But men 29:22will just be like handshake, let's talk politics, let's talk about and then let's talk about the development in the 29:28space that nobody understands. So, that's so good because my my wife was so 29:37exceedingly helpful for me when we first bought our first rental property. I I put in the ad, it's kind of I feel kind 29:43of cringe saying this, but I put in the ad all caps and it was like this many 29:49square feet, this price, uh, you know, all the things just like bullet form, literally all caps. And my wife is like, 29:55"Okay, hold hold up. We we and you know she she uh all the you know 30:03acute uh you know a cute quaint home as opposed to square footage you know and 30:10and and and our of course the ad performs so much better when when she when she put her her feminine touch on 30:18it. But yeah I mean we are we're terrible at some of these things. Uh yeah and that's fine because there's a 30:23place for that. But if you're trying to reach all people, i.e. half of them 30:29women, uh, we just need to reach them the way they need to hear things. So 30:35from that, I was inspired to start Orange Hatter because I wanted women being taught about Bitcoin women style.30:43So I started that to get kind of entice people to at least walk a little bit closer to the rabbit hole. And then when 30:49they got closer, I thought, where am I going to send them? are am I going to send them now to to like the same 30:55environment where they're being taught the the nuts and bolts of Bitcoin? Like no, they still need to continue being 31:02treated as women. So then I started the reading club and as I as I gather women 31:09together who want to learn more about Bitcoin, what I noticed was that lots of 31:15women are interested including moms, grandmas, and just women in of all ages.31:22But the ones who can come consistently are the ones without young children. Because the young children, moms would 31:29come in and out and very inconsistently because they're usually calling in from the car, they're driving to soccer, 31:34they're driving to ballet, they're preparing meals and whatever. But they are the ones that I want to reach the 31:40most because if you reach a mom with young children, the children are too young to kind of argue back.31:46Then you reach a whole group of people. So from there, I started to really focus 31:51on how I can communicate Bitcoin education and money education to moms with young children. And I realized that 31:58for most of them, they don't have the emotional bandwidth to talk about money education because they are mired in 32:07stuff like packing lunch, getting them to school on time, getting them to bed without, you know, without complaining, 32:15not spending too much time on the iPad, don't talk back to me, don't fight your with your brother and sister, like the 32:20normal stuff, like mom stuff. So I thought, okay, how am I going to reach these moms about money education if I 32:27don't address where they are first? Because if you go on social media and just do any kind of little bit of 32:32digging, the common questions that concern women of this age group or this 32:39life phase consists around discipline. So I thought, okay, I do want to tell 32:44them about money literacy, but let me gain their trust by sharing the stuff I have learned as a veteran mom and help 32:52them with their immediate needs. And that's how Pebble and Wave started. And even as I travel to different Bitcoin 32:59conferences and I talked to all kinds of people about Bitcoin education, especially as we try to share the 33:04knowledge with the women, I realized too that there's a foundation that we're not necessarily addressing. I feel like 33:11they're two or three steps ahead of where they're told about money that we just need to to start like dropping 33:18seeds, you know, so that we can lead them on this path. It's almost like a path of skipping stones. You have to 33:24take them from one stone, then jump to the other one, then jump to the other one, and then money literacy. But we 33:29jump them to money literacy, and they don't get it. We're like, what's wrong with you? So, that's what I've been 33:34trying to focus on. How do you frame it for women um in that it's more than just Framing Bitcoin through real-life problems like inflation 33:41an investment? Like like we view Bitcoin as money um not just an investment.33:47How do you how do you frame it and um yeah I mean like what is Bitcoin? Let's 33:54say I'm a I'm a woman. What how does it work? What is Bitcoin? Well, I will answer their im immediate 34:00concern. So moms of younger children probably are thinking, "How am I going to save for their college?"34:07Mhm. So they can either go into this state college fund that has all these restrictions and tied to taxes and 34:13things like that and who knows if it can even keep up with inflation. I would 34:20tell them about Bitcoin as a vehicle to preserve their wealth. But it's really 34:25important for me to share with them that it is still a it's a investment with risk. So 34:32there's not I think a lot of I've heard a lot of Bitcoiners say that their lives 34:38will be better if you just tell them to put their money in Bitcoin and they will be better five years from now. I said, 34:44well, I can't guarantee that. I can't guarantee where Bitcoin is going to be. It takes wild swings, right? High high 34:51highs and low lows. I when the moment comes and they need the money, I don't know if it's going to be a high or a 34:57low. So all I can say for them is let's35:02take a look at what's happening with the money you do have now. Let's say you do put the money in the state funded 35:09college investment vehicle, right? Okay.35:14The government continues to print. Inflation is not 3% or 5% as the media 35:20wants you to believe. The last time you went to the grocery store, you know that your grocery bill has doubled. So, think 35:27about it. Is your savings in the college fund going to double like the way our 35:34prices are doubling? If we don't ask them questions that make 35:39them come to the same the conclusion we want them to come to, which is our monetary system is really just not 35:46working. I can talk all day long till my face is blue about Bitcoin and they won't care.35:52So I do focus more on asking them questions for them to start doubting the 35:59system they believe in rather than saying, "Hey, look at Bitcoin. It's going to solve all your problems."36:06That's extremely insightful. Um, I like how, you know, if I start talking 36:12about inflation and CPI and charts and people, they just turn into a blank 36:17stare. But grocery store, everyone goes to the grocery store. Everyone knows 36:23that the price of eggs and the you know, all the the the cost of housing and the cost of energy and the costs are going 36:29up. And if you don't, we don't really need Bitcoin if there isn't a problem, 36:35right? No. So, I I like how you frame it there whereWhy mainstream adoption won’t be “soon”36:41you tie where you ask questions and you tie it to a problem. Where do you see a tipping point where 36:47Bitcoin is more common for everyday families and it's no longer having to like, you know, join a book 36:54club and and really do a lot of digging? You think that's coming very soon or are 37:01we still a long way off? It is not coming very soon. And I'll tell you why.37:07So, in my book club, we've we've done a lot of books. The book that I'm thinking of right now, 37:13it's the FIA food book. I don't know if you've read that or not, but I've not. Should I read it?37:19Okay, you should read it. You should. You're going to be really sad, but but it's the truth. And I think we're used 37:26to being sad as Bitcoiners. I know. But um the first part of the book talks 37:32about the evolution of what we believe is healthy food from like going all the 37:39way dating back to the early 1900s. And a very very obvious player in how 37:48people perceive different kinds of food as healthy or not healthy is marketing dollars.37:54They were talking specifically about Krisco, how it was a chemical byproduct considered unfit for human consumption 38:02in the beginning. Then with a lot of marketing dollars,38:09magazine, newspaper, TV, radio combined,38:15people were convinced to look at it as the healthy alternative to animal fat.38:23But it's only possible because of the repetition in all different places in 38:29all different sources that make it seem credible. They give funding to academic 38:35research centers which then would you know publish those findings findings 38:41etc. But none of that would have been possible without some dollars backing it. Who 38:48could print those dollars? So Bitcoin we don't have any such kind of power 38:54marketing power except word of mouth. Word of mouth is powerful if you reach 38:59people at the right place in their life circumstances as we talked about. Right?39:06So we don't have the marketing dollars to get in front of people over and over and 39:13over and over and over again. So the reputation is not on our side. It actually is against us because cryptocurrency has such a bad 39:19reputation. So is it going to be soon? I don't think so. I really don't think so.39:24I think we have a lot of competitive ideas in the marketplace right now, especially with the different types of 39:30cryptocurrencies out there that are so confusing. The fact that we have 39:36media that's talking like focused on one side, not the other, it's not a very unbalanced view. whichever view you 39:42happen to be stuck in. Uh I watched a TED talk yesterday, it's about 10 years 39:48old, talking about how we are how the in the the rise of Bitcoin actually made us 39:55more isolated than what they originally thought which would be a free exchange of ideas because algorithm tailors our 40:03feed so specifically. One example this guy used was two friends typed in Egypt 40:13in Google and took a snapshot of their result. One friend when he typed in 40:20Egypt, all that came up were all the violent um news having to do with a country. The 40:27other one was just cultural. Same word, nothing else. the results were night and 40:34day because we're being fed what the algorithm thinks we want to see. So, our 40:39viewpoint is getting smaller and smaller. I just I think there's a lot of work to 40:44be done, a lot of work to be done for Bitcoin to actually become a money standard.40:50[Music] I think I'm realizing that more and more every day about how early we are. Um, 40:57yeah. No, I I teach my kids all the time. It's billions and billions of dollars that are being spent to by 41:05marketing departments in some of the largest companies in the world um trying to hack your psychology and in many 41:12cases doing a very good job at it. Um, especially now that we have the internet 41:19and we have media, we have we have YouTube and algorithms and social media 41:24uh and now AI and and to to be very cautious and to remember they are trying 41:32to get you to buy their products. They are they are trying with all their might to get you to buy their products. And 41:39that does not necessarily mean that they're thinking of you in their in that you're keeping you in 41:46mind. Uh and and it's not necessarily advantageous for you to buy their products uh 41:52for you. Um and it's not even just things you buy per se. It's ideology and 42:00well that's a very good point and all of that stuff. Like we in the Bitcoin space 42:05can also become very fishbowl, you know, like we're just echo chambers to ourselves. We take a little step back 42:11and like, wait a second, other people don't believe what we believe. But they're all in their own little bubble, too.42:18Polarization is one of the things that really frustrates me right now. And I don't I don't know what to do about it.42:24Um, the internet's not going anywhere and it and it seems that we continue to get more and more polarized 42:31every day. Obviously, h having conversations is one42:37of the most important things. Uh, thank you for having conversation with me, Taly. I I feel like I could go on forever with you. Uh, you're you're 42:44really fun to talk to. Uh, but I know we are tight on time today. Uh where can we 42:50send folks who want to learn about all the incredible things that you are up to right now?Where to find Tali + outro42:56Right in the for the Bitcoiner women just go to orangehhatter.com 43:01and all the information is there. If they're interested in huddle on up that would be freearketids.com 43:06freearketids.com and if they're interested in parent coaching then go to pebbleandwave.com 43:14and they can find me all three places. Amazing. Okay. And that's wav 43:21pebbleandwave.com. Yes. And the idea is that the pebbles you drop are those nightly reinforcement 43:29in reinforcements of things you do well and write and make a difference. And then the wave is what extends outward 43:36and deepward. Deepward is that word? Deep word. And it Yeah, I love that analogy because 43:43the w the the wave really can be almost infinite for every pebble that you drop.43:49Mhm. Amazing. Tally, you're awesome. Thank you for so much for joining me. And uh you're so welcome.43:55Yeah. Thanks again. Thank you for having me.