0:00Bitcoin as a as the native currency of the internet makes sense because it is the biggest the most broadly used globally is going to define the future.0:1010 secondsIn my view, Bitcoin and Lightning will be the rails of autonomous agents. The more proliferated that becomes, the more0:1717 secondsprevalent, accepting and normalized it becomes, it will then stimulate the other side of the market. If people then see that you can spend Bitcoin, they may 0:2525 secondswell be ready to see it uh to spend it and buy it and hold it. Bitcoin is our gunpowder. Our entire strategy here is0:3333 secondsjust deploy the infrastructure, get people more used to it, get people comfortable with it, and then when the time comes, we're there. We can catch them. We can help.0:4747 secondsWelcome to Medium of Exchange, the podcast that spotlights business owners building on a Bitcoin standard. Today's guest is David Parkinson, founder and 0:5454 secondsCEO of Musket, a Bitcoin payments company that is building the infrastructure that makes Bitcoin usable everyday money. While much of the space 1:031 minute, 3 secondsfocuses on price and speculation, David is focused on something harder, payments that actually work and letting merchants1:101 minute, 10 secondsaccept Bitcoin and credit cards all in the same flow. So today we're going to be talking about Bitcoin as a medium of exchange and the realities of building 1:181 minute, 18 secondspayment infrastructure and why practical usability really matters. David, welcome to the show. Thank you. Great to be here.1:261 minute, 26 secondsWas there a painful moment where you put your hands up in the air and you said that's it. We have to fix this. I'm building musket.Chapter 2: David's Journey into Bitcoin and Musket's Foundation1:331 minute, 33 secondsYeah, there is. And there's a there's well teed up because there's a very long and meandering backstory to that as well. So you can um you can have a coffee whilst I take the reins for the 1:411 minute, 41 secondsnext 25 minutes. So my my background for anyone that hasn't um heard me before is um a mix of telecommunications. So I1:481 minute, 48 secondsspent a couple of years in low latency uh trading and algorithmic technologies in in London um sort of uh 2006 and 7.1:571 minute, 57 secondsThen spent about 10 years in management consultancy um and Young PWC that kind of thing. Uh and then seven years in the2:042 minutes, 4 secondsstrategy team at Sky or your your users might know or um listeners might know that as Comcast streaming TV businesses2:112 minutes, 11 secondsum launching across across Europe in Ireland, Germany, Austria, that kind of thing. Um it was whilst I was at PWC in2:182 minutes, 18 seconds2014 um that I stumbled into Bitcoin and I was working for Boris Johnson when he was the mayor of London. I was given a a Doge type project and said look here's a billion pounds worth of public spend.2:292 minutes, 29 secondsTake a hundred million out and save the taxpayers some money. So that was the that was the challenge. I did that with the team. Um the side project they asked 2:372 minutes, 37 secondsme was could we pay civil engineering contracts in Bitcoin? Um and I didn't really know much about Bitcoin at that2:452 minutes, 45 secondstime. A little bit I'd read a little bit about it, but I asked why and they said,2:482 minutes, 48 seconds"Well, and this was one chap in um in Transport for London who who runs all of the underground train network. Um and he2:562 minutes, 56 secondssaid um look, we we we want a tighter control over our supply chain. We want to trace where the payments are going.3:023 minutes, 2 secondsWe want to make sure that we're getting value for money in the procurement um activity and public funds are being used well. And we think if we pay them, if we 3:113 minutes, 11 secondsmandate payment in Bitcoin and we are the exchange of redemption at the end,3:153 minutes, 15 secondsthen we can see along that train where the the funds have gone, how much margin has been applied, uh and whether it's a good use and they've they've done 3:233 minutes, 23 secondsexactly what they said they were going to do. So interesting project. Um it didn't really go anywhere at the end. It was just a almost a research piece. I 3:323 minutes, 32 secondswas hooked, you know, I was completely obsessed at that point. The the more as as you do with Bitcoin, the more I learned about how it works and then I 3:403 minutes, 40 secondsstarted reading around the internet and um and trying to find some relative uh you insightful sto uh information3:483 minutes, 48 secondssources and the FT and the economist had viewpoints and just it wasn't good enough. So you end up in in dark forums3:563 minutes, 56 secondsor or sort of dark rabbit holes on bizarre forums where you just get more information than you otherwise would from from the traditional media. Um so 4:044 minutes, 4 secondsit was at that point I started spending a few years then really understanding Bitcoin. It took me you know life got in the way having I say life you know 4:134 minutes, 13 secondsmarriage kids that kind of things moving house a couple of times. life was busy.4:184 minutes, 18 secondsSo, I didn't really fully fully go into Bitcoin because I just had other stuff on and it didn't strike me just how important it was at that point. Um, so about 2 or 3 years later, it was 2017.4:304 minutes, 30 secondsUm, we had that really aggressive runup and uh and then this whole ecosystem of digital assets sprouted out. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take this seriously.4:394 minutes, 39 secondsI'm going to look into it." And I put all my knowledge together at that point.4:424 minutes, 42 secondsUm, and about a year later, um, then I just had all this information in my head. I got no one to talk to. I try and talk to friends and family about this.4:514 minutes, 51 secondsThey don't care. They think I'm a complete lunatic. I'm talking to them about the problems of central banking and changing the world. Um, and um, so I 5:005 minutesjust had to find an outlet. Um, so myself and a co-founder set up a training course. Um we wanted to orange pill as many people as we could and we 5:095 minutes, 9 secondsdid it in through the lens of talking about the history of economics um the history of the world to an extent um different forms of money different 5:175 minutes, 17 secondseconomic theories and then how Bitcoin fits in. So it was giving people a framework on how to think about it and at the end that's like 6 hours of of a 5:265 minutes, 26 secondsday. So we would invite venture capital firms, accountants, lawyers, anyone in finance, typically every six weeks about5:325 minutes, 32 seconds20 people, 30 people in a room. Um, and at the end of every session, they would always ask if there was any questions.5:405 minutes, 40 secondsAnd they would always say, someone guaranteed would always say, "Look,5:445 minutes, 44 secondsyou've just spent all day telling us why Bitcoin is money, but I can't spend it anywhere. I can't buy a coffee with it.5:495 minutes, 49 secondsI can't buy a sandwich with it." And that one, I don't know whether you've ever seen the meme on the internet of a of a sort of medieval knight in armor 5:575 minutes, 57 secondsand there's a tiny little sort of gap in his eyes and he's really well defended and it's uh it's sort of me saying Bitcoin is money for 6 hours and there's 6:066 minutes, 6 secondsa single arrow going straight through the armor saying but I can't spend it anywhere. You know, it's it was just that one killer line and it just at away at me for a year. Um and then COVID hit.6:186 minutes, 18 secondsum we we said look um I think let's let's pause. Let's go and take this opportunity to actually do the research about the products that are out there.6:296 minutes, 29 secondsLet's use our experience, our background, our network, our capability.6:326 minutes, 32 secondsLet's just build what we think the world needs. So this came about as you know we we do see Bitcoin as freedom money. Um I 6:406 minutes, 40 secondsrefuse to accept that it is only a store of value. I just don't think that's a particularly interesting outcome for Bitcoin. Um, I think the most important 6:486 minutes, 48 secondsoutcome is is that it's freedom money for humans and I think the most likely outcome is that it's also native internet money for autonomous agents.6:566 minutes, 56 secondsUm, and we're starting to see the sort of um the foundations of that start now.7:007 minutesSo the challenge then was to find the team, find the right people, build the right proposition um and get the MVP together, get that into market, get some 7:087 minutes, 8 secondsfunding um and start really turning it into from an idea into uh first of all worldclass engineered Bitcoin product,7:177 minutes, 17 secondsbut then a commercially um viable end-to-end solution at the end. We've achieved a lot of that um but we're on7:257 minutes, 25 secondsthe journey of of scaling and and we're in our growth phase at the moment. So, um, yeah, long-winded way of saying, um,7:327 minutes, 32 secondswe we wanted to address medium of exchange because people didn't believe,7:367 minutes, 36 secondsuh, believe me when I told them for 6 hours that it was.Chapter 3: The Challenge of Usability in Bitcoin Payments7:397 minutes, 39 secondsOkay. So, you're putting all this time and energy into helping people understand what is Bitcoin, how does it work, and then this arrow goes straight 7:477 minutes, 47 secondsstraight through the armor, right into your eye, and and I mean, what did that feel like when when they're hitting you with this this question? Was it right 7:557 minutes, 55 secondsoff the bat you're like I gotta build this or did some some time go by or it ate away because I would then sort of go back and lick my wounds and say right 8:038 minutes, 3 secondsthey're not wrong. I refuse to write that they are right but therein lies the opportunity. Let's have a look at the products that that were out there. And 8:118 minutes, 11 secondsyou know we were at that time we were in a really high fee onchain environment.8:148 minutes, 14 secondsLightning hadn't really been established and it wasn't um prevalent at that point. So it was still a little bit too8:218 minutes, 21 secondsearly for me to address the problem and I think timing worked quite well in our favor on on the basis that lightning then started to become a lot more 8:308 minutes, 30 secondsscalable and secure. Um and I think you know I saw a couple of products launch that worked that were that were good but8:388 minutes, 38 secondsthere was such a high degree of friction at the same time. So even if you on board a merchant to to accept Bitcoin they still need a parallel device. you 8:478 minutes, 47 secondsknow, they've got their their primary PDQ machine and then they have the um the Bitcoin machine or it's on the phone8:548 minutes, 54 secondsof the uh of the the entrepreneur or the business owner typically. And then you've got parallel reporting and accounting and then you've got to deal 9:029 minutes, 2 secondswith the tax uh and any divestment of capital gain in various jurisdictions.9:079 minutes, 7 secondsSo there was all kinds of friction points that these great solutions just weren't able to fix. And at the same time, the big operators in the world, 9:169 minutes, 16 secondsthe the traditional acquirers, they were looking at digital assets, but they just weren't interested. Um, and they certainly wouldn't have approached it 9:249 minutes, 24 secondsthrough the right Austrian economics lens uh of saying, "This is why Bitcoin matters. This is why we're going to add it as a an alternative payment method.9:339 minutes, 33 secondsAnd by the way, it's also the best form of money that you can also then use as collateral, as an incentive mechanism,9:399 minutes, 39 secondsand a reward mechanism, and payroll and tips and other things. So um so I I think you you know you're right. It was9:479 minutes, 47 secondsit wasn't this one moment. It was just a a chip away over time at each of these sessions and a gradual maturing of9:559 minutes, 55 secondslightning the end of co and a better environment to network and meet people in in person which is where I met my CTO10:0310 minutes, 3 secondsuh Ben Dal. Um yeah things came together and it was I think it was just a a vision to we wanted to do something. We10:1010 minutes, 10 secondswanted to address Bitcoin as money and then a refusal to accept that um the the world would take care of it and we didn't need to do anything. We said no, 10:1810 minutes, 18 secondslet's let's take action. Let's do something um and let's build what we think is um is missing.10:2510 minutes, 25 secondsI love that. So many companies, so many great companies are built on that refusal to accept premise, right? I've had so many conversations with merchants 10:3410 minutes, 34 secondsuh because I've been in the payment space the last 16 years and I've I've onboarded thousands of merchants to you know point of sale systems and credit 10:4110 minutes, 41 secondscard a and all that. We've got this chicken and the egg problem right consumers want to spend bitcoin but they can't. Some some of them want to spend bitcoin but they can't because merchants Chapter 4: Building Integrated Payment Solutions for Merchants10:5010 minutes, 50 secondsdon't accept it and merchants don't accept it because consumers but I I think the fundamental problem is merchants. So the tools aren't there.10:5810 minutes, 58 secondsYou're building the tools. You're literally building the tools, you know,11:0111 minutes, 1 secondfor a for a merchant. If you're a small business owner, medium-sized business owner, you know, Austrian economics, big big picture stuff sounds great, but at 11:0911 minutes, 9 secondsthe end of the day, I run a business and and it's got to be efficient and and my bookkeeper and my accountant and my staff and my my everyone has to has to 11:1811 minutes, 18 secondswork and so you're you're you've got it all integrated. That's I want to learn more.11:2211 minutes, 22 secondsSo, you've got a credit card terminal like a is it like a traditional is it a is a PAX terminal? What kind of terminal is this?11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsSo, this is our terminal. Uh so this is a uh a Verafhone terminal. Um we It's a Verafhone terminal.11:3411 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. So we've just secured a uh a global uh partnership with Verafhone. So they are our effectively our exclusive11:4211 minutes, 42 secondspartner on um hardware. So we're going to be working with Verafhone for the terminals. Um and that's not just that single terminal. It's a a range of 11:5011 minutes, 50 secondsterminals. So every merchant has got different requirements. Unattended for things like car parks or for vending machines. And then you have your your 11:5811 minutes, 58 secondscard present terminal there. There's also the EPOS. So if you think about if I if I step back and what is it that Musket offers? We have the card present 12:0612 minutes, 6 secondssolution. So that's card present is when the card has to be physically present.12:1112 minutes, 11 secondsUm we can sell that as a standalone device which includes cards and Bitcoin or we can bundle that together with our with our EPOS solution. So we have a 12:1912 minutes, 19 secondsfull stack EPOS solution which is all of your stock management, inventory management, product catalog, menu setup. We can do product pairings and offers, 12:2812 minutes, 28 secondsdiscounts, loyalty and reward schemes, staff management, booking, compliance,12:3212 minutes, 32 secondswhatever a hospitality business needs to run. We we have that inhouse. So for for us, what we're doing is we're not going 12:4012 minutes, 40 secondsinto a merchant and talking about adding an app to a device or giving you an extra device. We're saying we want your whole payment stack. Okay? So it's the whole thing. It's not just um one thing.12:5212 minutes, 52 secondsAnd then the third piece uh the third sort of pillar is the um e-commerce most in the wake of co what we saw with a lot12:5912 minutes, 59 secondsof hospitality venues is they installed QR codes on tables and quite often now I don't really love the experience but13:0713 minutes, 7 secondsit's there and it's out in the wild now but you go and scan the QR code get the menu order and your your food drinks13:1513 minutes, 15 secondswhatever it is gets delivered to the table but you've already checked out via via the online gateway. Now again, most people use Stripe, Aden, World Pay or something like that in their gateway.13:2613 minutes, 26 secondsAnd it was important for us to have that capability so that we can go to a merchant and say, "Look, you're using five different suppliers for for 13:3413 minutes, 34 secondsterminals, EPOS, for QR codes, for online gateway, for staff management.13:3913 minutes, 39 secondsAggregate it all together. We can give you a single price typically saving around about 30% uh against all of that13:4713 minutes, 47 secondsand deliver significant value. The beauty then is they've got one number and one person to deal with, one supplier to deal with. Um the beauty for 13:5613 minutes, 56 secondsus is we get to meet them where they are today. We don't have to spend so much time telling them how great Bitcoin is and it's going to take over the world.14:0514 minutes, 5 secondsWe can if they're interested, you know,14:0714 minutes, 7 secondsit's their our entire approach is for this to be a Trojan horse. You know, we want to be one of the best payments businesses on the planet so that you 14:1514 minutes, 15 secondschoose us because of our value added capabilities because our EPOS is better than everyone else because of the AI and analytics. We've just done a deep 14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsintegration with um Google Gemini. I know a lot of Bitcoiners don't love Google because of um I guess privacy and14:2914 minutes, 29 secondsand other things, but um we have to build worldleading software at the same time. um and are the the browser that14:3814 minutes, 38 secondsthe or the the system that the EPOS runs on Chrome OS a lot more stable than other systems. Gemini gives incredible14:4614 minutes, 46 secondsrich insights into the profit margins per um per item. It gives us insights and links, you know, weather patterns and staff um uh staff availability.14:5814 minutes, 58 secondsJason was working on Saturday. Uh no one likes Jason. we sold 50% le less coffee um because everyone saw that Jason was15:0715 minutes, 7 secondsworking you know that sort of thing the insights that it gives um a consumer really powerful and where we want to take that is then the fully end to end 15:1415 minutes, 14 secondsconnected supply chains looking down that the start of this agentic commerce piece and you know we've seen um both15:2315 minutes, 23 secondsanthropic um open AI and we've seen um Gemini or Google do something similar in15:3015 minutes, 30 secondsthat space the ability For us, we would love to to move into the space where we have an EPOS that has an agent that is capable of taking care of all inventory, 15:4015 minutes, 40 secondsstock control, delivery, purchasing decisions. Um, so that as a business owner, you have to make sure that you're running uh and you set the parameters 15:4915 minutes, 49 secondsupon running the business up, but you don't need to pay two or three members of staff to do that. In an environment where hospitality cost and margins are 15:5815 minutes, 58 secondsunder pressure, we're looking at our toolkit and going to market saying,16:0116 minutes, 1 second"Look, you're not just buying musket here. You know, you're not just adding Bitcoin. You're having you're experiencing a much better operational 16:0816 minutes, 8 secondsefficiency as a result." And that could well be the difference between someone being profitable and not. So, um, so, so that's sort of our approach and we take 16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsthat to market. The device here is now finally booted up. So you have um on the main screen there you have pay with Bitcoin, pay with card. I you can see it 16:2516 minutes, 25 secondsjust because of the um so it's super easy. You just hit pay with Bitcoin. I'm going to charge you one penny there. If you've got a lightning wallet, you could there you go. So it just comes up and 16:3316 minutes, 33 secondsyou can scan that and uh and pay. I've been out to merchants before, you know,16:3716 minutes, 37 secondsin the early days we were testing this and you go into a merch and you can probably you've probably got some war stories as well to tell, but you go into 16:4416 minutes, 44 secondsa merchant site and you've talked to them about payments. I've been told literally to [ __ ] off. Mhm. You know, it's get out, never come back.16:5316 minutes, 53 secondsNo. But if you go in and talk to them about Bitcoin, whether it's a cold call or it's a physical face to face conversation, you say, "Look, um, just 17:0217 minutes, 2 secondswondering who you have as your Bitcoin provider." Um, they then at least engage you in a conversation. So, it takes all the acidity out of a cold call or a 17:0917 minutes, 9 secondssale. So, for us, yes, Bitcoin is is exactly what we need to see in the world. We want to proliferate and accelerate the adoption. I'd say 95% of 17:1817 minutes, 18 secondsour revenue comes from basis points on Visa, Mastercard, and Ammex charges rather than uh rather than Bitcoin. So,17:2517 minutes, 25 secondsas as ideological and as philosophical and passionate as I am about Bitcoin, I think we've had this conversation internally with the with the whole team 17:3317 minutes, 33 secondsthat we just have to leave this ideology and our ego at the door because the world isn't completely ready yet for Bitcoin. is getting better and it's 17:4117 minutes, 41 secondsincreasing and it's improving. But you know the approach that we take is only by building by leading with Bitcoin and making it a central point of our 17:5017 minutes, 50 secondsproposition but by demonstrating to the world that they should choose Musket because we've got the best payments business on the planet not because we do Bitcoin. That's the way to approach it.17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsAnd so far it's working quite well. As I say it takes that acidity out of the conversation at the beginning because everyone's already got a payment provider. you know, it's it's the conversation about what are your rates, 18:1018 minutes, 10 secondsare your rates cheaper, what's your monthly rental on the terminal device,18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsetc., etc. So, as long as we can stay even or or deliver value and and ideally a lower cost structure on on a total18:2118 minutes, 21 secondscost of ownership basis on the the things that they have in their head,18:2418 minutes, 24 secondswhich is your your card rates and your your machine equipment higher, then we can have a conversation about who they use for EPOS and all the other capabilities. And maybe then by the end 18:3418 minutes, 34 secondswe say, "Oh, by the way, have you considered accepting Bitcoin because that comes as standard and here are the reasons why you should and the benefits 18:4118 minutes, 41 secondsthat you get." Um, it tends to work well and and you know, we're we're winning.18:4518 minutes, 45 secondsPeople like something new, something different. Um, and it's an ability to differentiate from the competition. Um,18:5218 minutes, 52 secondsand you know, again, people use it for different purposes. Some of our customers say, "Look, we take Bitcoin,18:5718 minutes, 57 secondswe just hold it and then we use it for our staff bonus at the end of the year or maybe a Christmas party or some other reason. We're in the early days of 19:0519 minutes, 5 secondsscaling approaching so somewhere between 50 and 100 million. So, we're in about depends when this airs, but we should be approaching 100 million volume on the Chapter 5: Scaling Musket and Future Expansion Plans19:1319 minutes, 13 secondsplatform, but we should be hitting about a billion um by the end of this year and should have about 3,000 customers or 3,000 venues and sites across Europe, 19:2319 minutes, 23 secondsacross the UK and Europe that will um that will be musket merchants. So, you know, again, for us, that's another flag19:3119 minutes, 31 secondsin a map that is a destination that is able to accept Bitcoin. And the more proliferated that becomes, the more19:3919 minutes, 39 secondsprevalent, accepting and normalized it becomes, it will then stimulate the other side of the market. If people then see that you can spend Bitcoin, they may 19:4719 minutes, 47 secondswell be ready to see it uh to spend it and buy it and hold it and at some point down the track say, "Yeah, I've got some Bitcoin. Oh, let me see if this works."19:5619 minutes, 56 secondsAnd and off they go.19:5719 minutes, 57 secondsWhat I what I love about what you're building is that it sounds very practical. um you're not trying to uh you know use a different as you 20:0520 minutes, 5 secondsmentioned use a different separate device. It's not integrated or or use just a standalone device standalone terminal but you you're 20:1420 minutes, 14 secondsyou're not only building it fully integrated in one device but you have a number of devices a number of ways to pay online retail mobile etc. And then 20:2320 minutes, 23 secondsyou've also got, you know, point of sale and AI. And I mean, it sounds like you're really cutting edge here and and delivering value to these businesses.20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsAnd that's probably why you uh, you know, you're going to have have processed over a billion dollars. You're delivering real value to these merchants. When do you come to the United States? That's where I'm at. Uh, 20:4320 minutes, 43 secondssounds like you got a great product.20:4420 minutes, 44 secondsYeah, look, we're in we're in um we're just kicking off our series A funding round right now. And I think largely where the check comes from um or where 20:5320 minutes, 53 secondsthe investment comes from is likely the deciding factor about our next market expansion. So at the moment it's looking21:0021 minuteslike uh the Middle East is um and potentially Dubai Qatar. So are not a great environment for Bitcoin but very21:0721 minutes, 7 secondsgood for for both investment um and potentially as a regional hub. UA much better regulatory and favorable as well21:1421 minutes, 14 secondsum for for investment. So, it is possible that we start there. However,21:2021 minutes, 20 secondsI've also been in conversations with a couple of US-based funds. Our lead investor, Axiom, are US-based as well or well split between the UK and US. The 21:2821 minutes, 28 secondsbig problem we have with the US is I think um it's not just funding that we we need is we'd need a partner just to help us address the regulatory challenges. You know, the state-by-state 21:3721 minutes, 37 secondsmoney transmitter licenses and various other hoops and hurdles to jump through.21:4221 minutes, 42 secondsI'm hoping to give you a an answer sort of Q3 Q4 next year. So Q3 Q4 27 um is21:5021 minutes, 50 secondswhen we can possibly launch in in North America. All being well I think you know this year for us it's consolidate UK and 21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsEurope and get get over that 1 billion volume mark. Um 2027 is likely when we expand uh into new markets and22:0422 minutes, 4 secondsgeographies because we know then that we've got that really big uh and solid traction base um to to rely on. you know, you guys are quite fortunate.22:1222 minutes, 12 secondsYou've got Square out there right now.22:1422 minutes, 14 secondsUm, you know, let's not detract away from what they're doing. They are a direct competitor to us. We we, you know, we win business from them. Uh, at 22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsthe moment, you know, they're in the UK around about 1.8% uh, per transaction.22:2722 minutes, 27 secondsWe start at 1%, we can go as low as 0.4 depending on volumes. Um, so it's quite a wide range, a wide window of of22:3622 minutes, 36 secondspayment rates. So, you know, Square look like they're doing a great job. you know, they've got a good outfit, good system. Um, they've recently embraced 22:4422 minutes, 44 secondsBitcoin. Technically, you know, we were the first to implement uh globally Lightning on a terminal alongside Visa22:5122 minutes, 51 secondsMastercard as a full stack solution, but you know, they've got 4 million merchants and we're we're a bit behind on that front, but um you know, that Chapter 6: The Competitive Landscape for Bitcoin Solutions22:5922 minutes, 59 secondsthat looks like a good solution for merchants and we look forward to competing and stealing all Jack Dorsey's business, but we'll see. We need both. It's not one or the other.23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsWe we need we need a lot of solutions. I mean, that's part of the problem is that there's so many solutions. It gets very overwhelming and that's I'm curious to 23:1623 minutes, 16 secondssee how you've been growing and how you get the word out. You know, you mentioned you're in scaling mode. Um, but it it's it's a ocean of options.23:2523 minutes, 25 secondsIt's very overwhelming for a business owner, at least here in the United States. Um, it's it's it's very overwhelming because you've got you've 23:3223 minutes, 32 secondsgot Square and you know they're they're publicly traded and they're pumping out all the marketing dollars and so it's a23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsvery wellrecoognized brand. But at the end of the day, you literally have thousands of options to choose from. But on the Bitcoin side, okay, let's talk 23:4723 minutes, 47 secondsabout accepting Bitcoin. Well, first of all, you don't have that many options to accept Bitcoin, particularly on a retail environment. And then if you want to 23:5523 minutes, 55 secondshave to accept Bitcoin integrated in with the ma major credit cards on your point of sale system, they're the only24:0224 minutes, 2 secondsname of the game. Like they're the only game in town. Like they're really the only option effectively. And I really believe that merchants need more than 24:1124 minutes, 11 secondsone option, right? They need We don't need a thousand options, but we probably need more than one.24:1524 minutes, 15 secondsYeah, I agree. And and I think the big problem here is look, you know, never interrupt your enemy when they're they're making a mistake. the other major acquirers are very very unlikely.24:2624 minutes, 26 secondsThey're going to be too big and too corporate and they're going to be very unlikely to have such a hardcore um24:3224 minutes, 32 secondscoalescence of coallesing of of Bitcoiners um within the company from the chief exec through to the chief technology24:4124 minutes, 41 secondsofficer, the chief product officer, the head of sales, those people in key roles are not going to understand Bitcoin.24:4724 minutes, 47 secondsthey will go down the digital assets and pay with crypto strategy and probably use a Coinbase plugin and say that they've ticked that box without really 24:5624 minutes, 56 secondsunderstanding the problem. And that's why I think what we're doing, that's why we're doing it is because it's not just about being able to pay with Bitcoin.25:0425 minutes, 4 secondsIt's about teaching the world why it's important. You know, we've seen people recently in Turkey over the last year using um uh using secondhand vehicles, 25:1425 minutes, 14 secondssecondhand cars as currency because their um their their financial system was imploding. So, if you're using25:2225 minutes, 22 secondssecondhand cars as as money, there's a problem there. Um that's not the last country that's going to experience um25:2925 minutes, 29 secondsyou know, monetary challenges. As time goes on and we see more and more of these episodes of of fiscal mismanagement and high inflationary 25:3725 minutes, 37 secondsperiods, the method of payment then becomes much more important. So, you know, our entire strategy here is just deploy the infrastructure, get people 25:4725 minutes, 47 secondsmore used to it, get people comfortable with it, and then when the time comes,25:5025 minutes, 50 secondswe're there. We can catch them. We can help. um you know you can I if god forbid if um we ever see these ideas of25:5925 minutes, 59 seconds15minute cities uh that have been promoted in the UK where you're not allowed to leave a a geographically26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsboundaried perimeter you know you're supposed to live I mean in one in one side of my head that's a really nice experience because you're it's like 26:1526 minutes, 15 secondsliving in a village you're walking and you get to know your people the people your neighbors and your community and your life is is is where you It's sort 26:2226 minutes, 22 secondsof how things used to be. But at the same time, it's very tyrannical. It's it's literally stopping people making the choices that they want to make and and impinging on freedoms. So, you know, Chapter 7: The Implications of State Control and Freedom26:3426 minutes, 34 secondsI heard this before. What the the the UK government is restricting where you are geographically allowed to roam.26:4026 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. So, there's So, if you look at Oxford, Oxford right now is being used as a bit of a template or a test case.26:4626 minutes, 46 secondsAnd there's this idea, it's it's quite an insidious idea, but it's it's um being branded and treated as as something that's nice. It will reduce 26:5526 minutes, 55 secondsCO2 emissions. It will reduce noise pollution. So So it's being presented to people as though it's a lovely idea. Um27:0227 minutes, 2 secondsand won't it be nice to to meet your neighbors and to walk and and use the local producers and shops, etc. But at27:0927 minutes, 9 secondsthe same time, it's it's using ANPR, so CCTV cameras to track your movements both from facial recognition and from27:1827 minutes, 18 secondsyour your vehicles. And you're only allowed certain distance access or access to the city center certain amount of times. You're allowed out of your 27:2627 minutes, 26 secondszone a certain amount of times. So, I think it's not been fully implemented yet, but it's at the sort of idea stage.27:3227 minutes, 32 secondsAnd for me, all of these things just you end up there may well not be a physical boundary, but what's the difference between a physical boundary and a 27:4027 minutes, 40 secondsdigital boundary? If your face and your vehicle is registered and then you're fined because you've exceeded some sort27:4727 minutes, 47 secondsof imaginary allowance on how you've lived your life, it's wild. So again, I think you know the the deeper philosophical Bitcoinled mission of our 27:5627 minutes, 56 secondsbusiness is to make sure that merchants can accept and use Bitcoin so that individuals can push back against state28:0328 minutes, 3 secondstyranny and say, "I would like to buy as much stake as I want, please. I would like to buy as much gasoline or fuel for28:0928 minutes, 9 secondsmy car because I'm going to drive 200 miles away and get out of this hellhole um 15-minute city that you've tried to28:1728 minutes, 17 secondstrap me in." Um, so I think you know they're they're edge cases, right? I don't I'm not completely paranoid, but if you have a look at what the Oxford 28:2528 minutes, 25 secondsCouncil are doing, it's not particularly favorable and I I don't think it's a nice way to live um either. It removes a28:3228 minutes, 32 secondslot of human choice um and serendipity as well.28:3528 minutes, 35 secondsI mean, so this is part this is where I think the theoretical gets into very practical. In my experience, so many28:4328 minutes, 43 secondssmall and mediumsiz business owners are very practical people. They just need it to work. They just need solutions,28:4928 minutes, 49 secondsright? They're not here for intellectual ideas. Um, and so much of Bitcoin represents freedom and sovereignty and for a for a business owner, redundancy, 29:0029 minutesright? Like when you've got the fragility of the financial system,29:0329 minutes, 3 secondsyou've got potential to be debanked, the you know, if they decide they don't like your industry anymore, uh, you you have 29:1029 minutes, 10 secondsredundant rails. you have the ability to accept money uh on your on your device that has all of your inventory and your29:1829 minutes, 18 secondsyour team members are used to using and all of that. And so that's a that's a real value ad I think that you provide as opposed to all the other players that 29:2529 minutes, 25 secondsare only accepting the major card brands. So I guess I I'd like to zoom out a little bit and we started to get a little bit more into the big picture and 29:3429 minutes, 34 secondslike these these ideas of freedom and sovereignty. So you shared a little bit about that sounds great. Bitcoin is money, but you you can't spend it, 29:4329 minutes, 43 secondsright? But what for you was kind of the the the the aha moment where you're like, "This isn't just interesting, but this is really worth dedicating years of 29:5129 minutes, 51 secondsmy life to like the Bitcoin as a project, not just the ability to spend it." What What was that like moment like for you?Chapter 8: The Philosophical Underpinnings of Bitcoin Adoption29:5829 minutes, 58 secondsYeah. So, so just on the on the the previous point of I think look, a general ethos of our business is to to understand that merchants don't care about all of this stuff right now. So, 30:0930 minutes, 9 secondswe take care of it for them if I see us as a as the life jacket that you hopefully never have to use, you know,30:1630 minutes, 16 secondsor or the fire extinguisher. It's there if you need it and it will take care of you if you need it and if you want to use it every day, Bitcoin that is, then 30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsgreat. But if you don't, it's just there. And, you know, so our job is making sure that we have value added toolkits, our rates are attractive, we save them money, and we give an 30:3230 minutes, 32 secondsincredible solution. And they need to know that their their funds are safe.30:3530 minutes, 35 secondsthey get paid within 24 hours into their merchant bank account and everything works. So, so that's that's our starting point. You know, that's your table stakes. Being the best is table stakes.30:4630 minutes, 46 secondsUm, changing the world and, you know,30:4830 minutes, 48 secondsdoing that in secret uh in the background is is the philosophical side.30:5230 minutes, 52 secondsWhy do we do that? That side of it is is what keeps us going. It's a hard journey, you know, going from nothing to building the business. We've got 22 31:0031 minutesFTEEs right now in in the team spread across the world from an engineering perspective. And you know, the people it's a it's a tough journey. It really is. The people that we've got know that, 31:1131 minutes, 11 secondsbut they're all here because they're passionate about Bitcoin. They believe in Bitcoin and they want to see it succeed. These are people who want to 31:1831 minutes, 18 secondstake action. you know, they want to do something rather than just buy Bitcoin,31:2231 minutes, 22 secondshold it forever, and then retire because it's gone up, you know, 10 to 20x in value or um or or or protect their31:3031 minutes, 30 secondswealth over the long term. They actually they subscribe to the things that I'm talking about and they say, "Look, yeah,31:3631 minutes, 36 secondsBitcoin as a medium of exchange changes the world." And why does it change? It shouldn't. Bitcoin as a media exchange should not have to change the world. But 31:4331 minutes, 43 secondswe know that with capital controls globally with all these the new technocratic state that seems to be31:5131 minutes, 51 secondsemerging in every country around the world is not helpful for humans, you know, for for our our experience as as people and free people. It's not I don't 32:0032 minutesI don't think there's a great future ahead for us unless we we use whatever toolkits we've got to push back like encryption and um and and Bitcoin. Where 32:0932 minutes, 9 secondsdid that aha moment come from? I think it took a while. Before Bitcoin, I didn't see it. I did not I didn't think32:1532 minutes, 15 secondsthat uh hiding personal data or or not revealing personal data was anything to ever worry about. I didn't think about32:2332 minutes, 23 secondsfacial recognition being a problem because I didn't think about the second or third order magnitude effects of these things. And when I saw I think 32:3132 minutes, 31 secondsChina's probably the the furthest ahead that I've seen of the negative consequences. And this was maybe 5 years ago or so. You know, you have people's 32:3932 minutes, 39 secondsfacial recognition being scanned linked to social credit scoring, which is how well you behave in society. Um, and32:4832 minutes, 48 secondsthere was this uh it wasn't just a theoretical idea. This is in in practice in life right now. And if you have a better social credit score, great. Live 32:5532 minutes, 55 secondsyour life. If you have a worse social credit score, well, then it's harder to get things like financing. You can't take a loan out. you can't travel in 33:0333 minutes, 3 secondscertain classes and carriages of a train. I heard one story of a man who was in debt um maybe missed a payment on33:1233 minutes, 12 secondsa repayment on a loan and his son was rejected from his place at university or or the offer that he had for a33:2033 minutes, 20 secondsuniversity for higher education was removed. So even more intense sort of examples like uh there there was a girl33:2833 minutes, 28 secondswho was walking to the shop in her pajamas. the camera saw it and said well she should be better dressed than that and um you know docked her some social 33:3633 minutes, 36 secondscredit scoring points which fell below a threshold and she was fined maybe 20 pounds or something like that. So things like that I just it it's very 33:4533 minutes, 45 secondsuncomfortable because then you have a centralized state and a body that is dictating how we should live our lives.33:5133 minutes, 51 secondsWell, humanity has emerged over thousands of years based on its willingness to survive and battle the33:5833 minutes, 58 secondselements, and all of a sudden, we're now being told by bureaucrats how to live,34:0234 minutes, 2 secondswhat a good choice is, what a good person is. And you're we're becoming dronike and machine-like. There's no there's none of those serendipitous 34:1034 minutes, 10 secondsmoments that have resulted in the emergence of culture in in every nation,34:1534 minutes, 15 secondsin every geographical region. So I think you you remove that you remove a a large part of of the human experience and IChapter 9: The Historical Context of Freedom and Control34:2234 minutes, 22 secondsthink it was Bitcoin you understanding that and seeing that these freedoms are gradually being impinged upon um are was34:3034 minutes, 30 secondswas a problem. And then then I went down the historical rabbit hole and went all sort of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and uh and went back to John 34:3834 minutes, 38 secondsLock and then we stop at sort of King John and then Magna Carta. Um, you know, I understanding why Americans have guns.34:4634 minutes, 46 secondsWhy are guns important in America? You know, as a Brit, we we're just sort of indoctrinated to think that you're all34:5334 minutes, 53 secondsinsane um for having guns. But when I started to think about it through the lens of well, actually that they were35:0135 minutes, 1 secondthe things that stopped you being your land being taken from you. They were the things that protected you um migrating35:0835 minutes, 8 secondseast to west during the 1800s. they, you know, they are an essential part of your um your ideology and your culture. We just don't have that in ego. We used to, 35:1835 minutes, 18 secondsbut we've forgotten about it. So, I think, you know, freedom is is a really interesting aspect of it. And, you know,35:2535 minutes, 25 secondsBitcoin being unstoppable. The second that you give a central body control over decisions and and arbit being the35:3335 minutes, 33 secondsarbitrator of what is right and wrong is just is the beginning of the end for for freedom. And I worry that we've already 35:4135 minutes, 41 secondspassed some of those milestones and we're on a sort of fast track towards just being,35:4735 minutes, 47 secondsyou know, sort of a meaty tax uh vessel um for the state. That's all we are as people. So I think, you know, I would35:5635 minutes, 56 secondsargue the world is better than that and people can be better than that and societies can be. So yeah, you know,36:0036 minutesBitcoin, as I say, um Bitcoin changed the way that I see the world, the way I think about it. start reading around going down various rabbit holes. It's 36:0936 minutes, 9 secondsnot just about the protocol, the technology, not just about how money works and how central bank works. It just it's so broad and all-encompassing.36:1836 minutes, 18 secondsUm uh that it sort of it sent me in a bit of a spiral. Um I went to the bottom of the rabbit hole, worked my way back36:2436 minutes, 24 secondsup, and here we are. It's interesting to think about how guns help us avoid tyranny and maybe the parallel there36:3236 minutes, 32 secondsabout how you've named your company Musket after a gun and how how impactful Bitcoin though like on a practical level36:4036 minutes, 40 secondshow it like it really does help a business avoid financial tyranny in a way.36:4536 minutes, 45 secondsYeah. I mean, I think the origin of the name was part of that. As I said, I went full full on down the rabbit hole as I sit behind uh behind me here. I've got 36:5336 minutes, 53 secondsthe you know the autobiographies of Thomas Payne and Hamilton and um or the biographies rather Hamilton and Washington atal but um the you know if I 37:0237 minutes, 2 secondsjust sit back and think about Bitcoin um I can't remember at one point I thought this was an original thought that I had but I may well have borrowed the idea 37:1037 minutes, 10 secondsfrom someone else and assumed that I was super intelligent and thought about it but I think it might have been Safeodine um who said this first but um you know 37:1937 minutes, 19 secondsif you think about Bitcoin's impact in the world you know what Is it what can it be compared to? Is is Bitcoin akin to the internet? Or or you know, let's go 37:2837 minutes, 28 secondsback 100 years, 500 years, thousand years. Is it religion? Is it time? Is it something else? I I just I came to the37:3637 minutes, 36 secondsconclusion that it's most akin to gunpowder. Um you know, Bitcoin as as it stands, you can, you know, light a match37:4437 minutes, 44 secondsand it will explode and it will do some serious damage to whatever location it is in. However, if you're a bit smarter,37:5237 minutes, 52 secondsif you load that gunpowder in a sort of uh in a vessel and you point that vessel at the corridors of power or whatever38:0038 minutesyou need to, then you can change the course of history. And you know,38:0438 minutes, 4 secondsgunpowder did that. Gunpowder and and weaponry changed the face of the world.38:0938 minutes, 9 secondsYou know, I believe China was the first to to to discover it, but didn't really maximize it. Um, same mistake with38:1738 minutes, 17 secondslong-distance ships that they made there and fiat currency as well. So China's been ahead of the always been ahead of the curve but never really maxim um 38:2438 minutes, 24 secondsmaximize the sort of benefit of it. But you know the impacts of gunpowder you know if you if you don't adopt it then you become its victim and I think 38:3238 minutes, 32 secondsBitcoin is the is the same um if you don't adopt it you know then then unfortunately your money becomes38:3938 minutes, 39 secondsworthless um and Bitcoin continues to rise using that as a defensive toolkit against tyranny against bad actors I38:4638 minutes, 46 secondsthink is essential but you can't push this ideology on people they don't want to know they recoil from it and and you have to let them come to that conclusion 38:5338 minutes, 53 secondson their own so you know yeah the origin of the name is effectively that you it's the recognition that gunpowder and guns changed the course of the English civil 39:0139 minutes, 1 secondwar. You know that it changed the course of English history in the 1650s, the American Revolution, the Wild West, you know, all of these things 39:1039 minutes, 10 secondswhich defined the future trajectory of humanity, society and history um arguably were were facilitated or or um39:1939 minutes, 19 secondsthere was a very important role that was played by gunpowder. And I think Bitcoin is our gunpowder. is going to define the future. In my view, Bitcoin and 39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsLightning will be the rails of autonomous agents, you know, and LLM's trading without any human interaction.Chapter 10: Bitcoin as a Tool Against Financial Tyranny39:3439 minutes, 34 secondsyou know, if if an agent is um is operating autonomously and it it achieves artificial general39:4239 minutes, 42 secondsintelligence, well, the smartest ones are either going to try and create something new as a currency to use, or39:5039 minutes, 50 secondsthey're going to recognize the fact that actually those humans did a pretty solid job of connecting proof of work and energy and the requirement to actually expend value on something, you know, 40:0040 minutesphysical value and energy to create money that can be used as a median exchange because otherwise there's no40:0740 minutes, 7 secondsvalue in it. And if I just create a an AI token and send that to another bot,40:1340 minutes, 13 secondsAIS are just going to be consistently scamming each other like the the rest of the crypto industry has done for the last five or six years. Um, you know, I 40:2240 minutes, 22 secondsthink that that's the future. I think humans use use Bitcoin toolkit and and AI use it as their money. Why do you40:2940 minutes, 29 secondsthink that an AI agent would recognize hard sound money? I mean, I understand40:3640 minutes, 36 secondsthe programmability aspects, but what makes Lightning better than a stable coin, for example, in the eyes of an AI agent?40:4340 minutes, 43 secondsA couple of things. First of all, Visa,40:4540 minutes, 45 secondsMastercard, MX agents aren't going to go through KYC, right? They're not going to they're not going to get a bank account.40:5140 minutes, 51 secondsSo unless they're fraudulently accessing humans users or maybe even trying to create and use their own ability to uh41:0041 minutesto create a fake person um then uh it's going to be a challenge. So there going to be it's going to be difficult to use41:0641 minutes, 6 secondslegacy rails. Bitcoin as a as the native currency of the internet makes sense because it is the biggest the most41:1441 minutes, 14 secondsbroadly used globally. So the mining and the network and the node distribution is an order of magnitude higher than any41:2141 minutes, 21 secondsother digital asset. No other digital asset will catch up. The incentives don't work. They're not aligned. Um and Bitcoin wins. Bitcoin is inevitable. So 41:3041 minutes, 30 secondsit's already won. Bots may well recognize that and if they're using lightning, they may well use Bitcoin as a value transfer. But I take the point 41:3941 minutes, 39 secondsthat actually they they are more more likely actually to use stable coins. in the short. It depends how agents think.41:4641 minutes, 46 secondsIf agents operate with a um uh with a degree of time preference and they can think on a long time ba long-term basis,41:5341 minutes, 53 secondsthey may well say, "Well, I'm happy to trade with all these other bots and just acrue sats and get as much Bitcoin as I I can because I can I can see where this 42:0242 minutes, 2 secondsis going." But if they're looking for value now today, they may well decide to do do stable coins and transact using stable coins over Lightning. But I still 42:1142 minutes, 11 secondsthink Bitcoin and Lightning are the rails of the internet and and agents and maybe they use a mix of both. And look,42:1742 minutes, 17 secondsI think generally for the next at least 10 years, that's going to be how the world emerges. It's not going to be just cards, just stable coins, it's going to 42:2542 minutes, 25 secondsbe a mash of everything. You know, there there's going to be all all of the various alternative payment methods. And over time, Bitcoin will win. Um, and 42:3542 minutes, 35 secondsit's it's inevitable. It may well take 50 years, but that's that's the journey we're on. So, I think we're in the early42:4242 minutes, 42 secondsstages now of that that transition from old money, the legacy infrastructures,42:4642 minutes, 46 secondsthe legacy systems into the new environment. And arguably, I think it could well be agents that find that. And maybe phase one is agents using stable 42:5542 minutes, 55 secondscoins over lightning rather than uh Bitcoin Bitcoin. It's interesting to think about uh what is the time horizon43:0343 minutes, 3 secondsfor an agent because I guess that is part of the the crux of the question here and like debt based money versus hard sound money. Uh what's your time 43:1243 minutes, 12 secondshorizon? Do you do you want to store value over time43:2043 minutes, 20 secondsor not? I guess well, yeah, maybe we should ask the agents. They seem to be close to to jailbreaking themselves43:2943 minutes, 29 secondsthese days. So maybe we don't have long to people are calling for it,43:3343 minutes, 33 secondsright? I mean, it's uh with the the spate of resignations across um AI businesses uh in in safeguarding43:4143 minutes, 41 secondspositions this week. Um maybe AGI is already here. We'll see. um or all of the malt book uh activities over the43:4943 minutes, 49 secondslast couple of weeks have been a bit wild even though some of it was was not real. Look, I think we're not going to have have to long have to wait long to 43:5643 minutes, 56 secondsfind out the answer. Um yeah, what is the time frame of of an agent? How long do they they think we know what our time44:0344 minutes, 3 secondsframe is? typically around about 80 years and of that of being a actor actually making positive choices probably about 40 because you know it's 44:1244 minutes, 12 secondsfrom when you're 20 to to 60 when you make most of your decisions the bit before that you're trying to figure yourself out um and a bit after that 44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsyou've already made your mind up and unlikely to change so you got 40-year time horizon maybe agents can start to think over a thousand years and you know 44:2944 minutes, 29 secondsthat's something that's difficult for us to comprehend yeah I don't know Uh but you know, all I do know is that there's only 21 million bitcoin and an artist 44:3844 minutes, 38 secondscan't accelerate that. They're not going to be able to accelerate the um uh the release of the bitcoin uh and the access to it. All they can do is participate in the network which I think is incredible.44:4944 minutes, 49 secondsYou have a system that that humans have invented that uh that AI which which soon are going to be clever, more44:5644 minutes, 56 secondsintelligent in processing capability than humans and we're going to be competing for the same money. I'm not one for price predictions, but if that Chapter 11: The Future of Bitcoin and AI Agents45:0445 minutes, 4 secondsdoesn't make you obscenely bullish, then then it really should. It really is interesting to think about, you know,45:1045 minutes, 10 secondsbecause Bitcoin for me was I just never was that interested in history and and then I began to fall down the the rabbit45:1745 minutes, 17 secondshole and I'm learning about like the history of money and going back through, you know, all the way back to,45:2445 minutes, 24 secondsyou know, salt and shells and gold, you know, goldbacked paper money and debt based fiat money and everything.45:3245 minutes, 32 secondsYeah. It's just it's really it's really interesting to think about the everything that's been going on recently with all the the AI mania, what is the 45:4145 minutes, 41 secondsfuture going to look like when it's not just Bitcoiners who understand Bitcoin?45:4845 minutes, 48 secondsUh but if you have access to such extreme amounts of information and you are predisposed to efficiency and45:5645 minutes, 56 secondstalking to other computers, well, we know that programmable internet based money is going to be more efficient in so many ways than you know the the these 46:0446 minutes, 4 secondsthese arbitrary lines that we've drawn around the map and said this is where money can and cannot be used and the government controls the money and uh the robots don't care. The robots just need 46:1146 minutes, 11 secondsefficiency. They just need to talk to their computers. But think about what I mentioned earlier about the wild west,46:1646 minutes, 16 secondsyou know, the the American West, that migration of people not just from the the US but from Europe to land because because of hope primarily, you know, 46:2546 minutes, 25 secondsit's people searching, you know, 1848 gold rush starts. Um, okay, brilliant. People flocking for a better life.46:3346 minutes, 33 secondsThere's all this land that's available,46:3446 minutes, 34 secondsbut all that land was only available because of various actions of the US government, Louis Louisiana purchase and other things. Maybe maybe my timings are 46:4346 minutes, 43 secondsquite not quite right here, but you know, the USA as a as an entity as we know it today came together over a series of acquisitions which then gave 46:5246 minutes, 52 secondsrise to the um all of the influx of people. Well, then you had to defend your land. Then you needed guns and and46:5846 minutes, 58 secondsthen cowboys emerged because they had to move cattle and defend against all kinds of other threats, etc., etc. But then47:0647 minutes, 6 secondsthat period of time died. That period of time ended with with railroads, you know, but but it didn't necessarily kill ranching. It didn't kill farming. It 47:1547 minutes, 15 secondsdidn't kill the idea of a cowboy. It just greatly reduced its importance, the volume of it, the number of people doing47:2347 minutes, 23 secondsthat activity. I think, listen, there's there's there's a deep side, a dark side47:3047 minutes, 30 secondsof me that thinks possibly we and the collective we as Bitcoiners, we might be the biggest community that it's ever47:3847 minutes, 38 secondsgoing to get. This might be peak Bitcoin um in terms of people. I don't I hope it's not because if we're successful, we should almost be putting ourselves out 47:4747 minutes, 47 secondsof a job because if Bitcoin becomes money, if Bitcoin gets used, no one will be talking about how important it is.47:5347 minutes, 53 secondsthey'll just be interacting with it and using it. So, you just go on with your lives. So, then the the existential question then is, well, what does, you know, what does a cowboy do when there's 48:0248 minutes, 2 secondsno cowboying to be done? You you become a rancher or something. It's like, well,48:0648 minutes, 6 secondsokay, well, what what do Bitcoiners advocate for? Um, when when Bitcoin wins, and I think Bitcoin is going to be48:1348 minutes, 13 secondsinevitable. Um, it may be the fight of our lives, and it's the most important thing now, but in 10 years, maybe we've won. You know, maybe we've already won 48:2248 minutes, 22 secondsin that point. and um and we can just get on with our lives and focus on building whatever it is we want, whether that's a business, a legacy, a family, 48:3048 minutes, 30 secondsall of the above, travel. Um but we know that we're doing it in an environment that we fought for, which is an environment where inflation isn't 48:3948 minutes, 39 secondsdestroying our um our wealth and savings, where governments and centralized bodies aren't restricting our movements. Um, so or or it could 48:4848 minutes, 48 secondswell be that actually we never win and it's just a constant battle and we have to take that ideology and and keep48:5548 minutes, 55 secondsdefending it, fighting for it and you know we just keep using Bitcoin to do that and we pass the torch on to the next generation.49:0349 minutes, 3 secondsThere's going to be nearly infinite ways to improve the world. Money is just the start and because money touches everything. I think that's one of the best places to start. That's kind of my 49:1249 minutes, 12 secondsmy take on it. I agree is that every nearly everything so many things flow downstream from economics. And so that's49:2049 minutes, 20 secondswhy the phrase fix the money, fix the world. That's where that comes from. But if we can, let's say after we fix the49:2849 minutes, 28 secondsmoney, there's plenty of other problems to fix, right? It's just a starting point.49:3249 minutes, 32 secondsYeah. Exactly. I mean, you know, the moon isn't going to and Mars aren't going to cultivate themselves. So, how do we get off Earth and become an 49:4049 minutes, 40 secondsinterplanetary species and a type 3 cardv society is um is next on the list.49:4649 minutes, 46 secondsAwesome. Well, David, uh this has been a really fun conversation. Thank you for joining me and I would love to help out any way I can here in the States whenever you're ready to expand.49:5649 minutes, 56 secondsI mean, it sounds like you're going to be a great sales uh leader for us uh in North America from your your past experience. So, yeah, I'll I'll be in touch.50:0450 minutes, 4 secondsAwesome.