0:00 and so I figured man are there any tools out there that can help me connect onchain bitcoin activity directly to 0:06 QuickBooks kind of blew my mind at the beginning There's nothing that looked like a normal bank statement out there 0:13 for us to tie back to We started with you put in an address into our tool and we and it spits out a bank statement 0:20 $200 Dominous rule If that were to pass and say to stay at the $200 limit that 0:25 would mean that anything under that limit any specific transaction under that limit there's no there's no taxes 0:31 and there's no reporting You go buy your coffee with bitcoin you go buy a beer at the park with bitcoin and there's no 0:38 there's no [Music] issues Medium of Exchange is sponsored 0:44 by Polaris Payments Let's face it for now businesses still need to accept fiat 0:50 and credit cards Polaris Payments helps with all your credit card processing needs using a consultative approach 0:57 Think of Polaris like a performance coach helping take your business to the next level when it comes to accepting 1:03 all forms of money For more information about Polaris Payments visit 1:08 polarispayments.com Now let's get back to the show Hello and welcome to the Medium of Exchange podcast Today Jack 1:15 and I are excited to welcome Jordan Guest Uh Jordan's a CPA at Trusted Advisors and co-founder of Bitment a 1:23 bitcoin native accounting and tax tool Jordan welcome to the show Thank you I'm excited to be here Excited to uh get to 1:29 know you all you guys a little bit more and um yeah kind of just talk through what we're all building on And I don't 1:36 know Yeah I I mean let's just jump right in Tell us a little bit about your So 1:42 you got the traditional CPA firm at Trusted Advisors Is that accurate And then you're building a really cool 1:47 product at BitMint Tell us a little bit about kind of your background and what you're building Sure So I started my own From CPA to bitcoin Accounting 1:54 CPA firm in um 2020 and worked I was I did public accounting prior to that a 2:01 small firm in Louisville and then left to go try corporate accounting And while I was in corporate accounting got my CPA 2:08 license basically had some uh friends family reach out from that prior firm to 2:14 see if I would continue doing their tax stuff So that I fell into doing the tax firm on my own I didn't set out to do 2:20 that Built it on the side for about a year while working at that W2 job and then uh about 12 13 months later um left 2:29 and just went full-time So I've been full-time since I guess uh tail end of 2020 And then that would have been about 2:36 the same time I got into bitcoin So I would have started listening to the 2:41 Sailor series from Breedlove uh probably December of 2020 and didn't didn't 2:48 finish it until probably March or at least the first 10 episodes or whatever So that that's what really got me down 2:54 the rabbit hole I you know of course had heard about bitcoin before that but had not really 3:00 uh really done much research Very similar story to most dismissed it did not do my research as as quickly as I 3:08 should have Um but what's what's interesting I think about my story was during that runup uh you know on 21 and 3:15 all all the craziness I started to take on clients that were in the bitcoin 3:22 space and then inevitably in in other parts of crypto world as well but uh you 3:28 know I was like well I do work for NFT projects just because they need the help but I'm you know I'm a bitcoiner at 3:34 heart um and bitcoiners sometimes are very boring clients for me because 3:40 they're just buy and hold and there's no tax consequences uh at least in the short term So yeah I'll pause there 3:46 That's kind of my background of of how I've gotten into the space and and then yeah I'm happy to talk more about Bitment 3:52 because that's that was born out of um yeah I can talk about that now or 3:58 however uh but yeah that was born out of a situation with the CPA firm So tell us 4:04 about that situation Yeah So I brought on a bitcoin miner He was probably my 4:10 Yeah he was my first bitcoin client Classic uh hit me up probably 4:16 like four or five days prior to the extension deadline So this would have been um sometime in a October Um and he 4:24 and it probably would have been 2022 and needed the books he needed his QuickBooks cleaned up and we needed to 4:30 file the taxes and we barely had any time to do it Um but he DM'd me on Twitter and I was like "Oh this is cool 4:37 I've never done this before." So I jumped in We had to make his QuickBooks 4:44 accurate which you know involved pulling in all the mining revenue from CSV imports and then making sure that we 4:50 accounted for all the machine purchases and getting that on depreciation schedule And that whole experience was 4:57 like it was fine It was just very time inensive And so I figured man is there 5:03 is are there any tools out there that can help me connect onchain bitcoin activity directly to QuickBooks Uh 5:10 because if you're if you're not familiar you know Plaid does a pretty good job of connecting all bank and credit cards uh 5:16 you know directly into QuickBooks and it's fairly straightforward So whereas I quickly learned that there is no great 5:23 way Um you know and even even yesterday I had a pretty long conversation with uh 5:28 with Joe that Joe Wood at Satoshi Pacioli That's why I was down in Nashville yesterday to just continue 5:34 down the rabbit hole of bitcoin accounting And um so anyways our tool 5:40 right now what we have set out to do the very interim or at the very beginning is 5:46 just build a bitcoin bank statement kind of blew my mind at the beginning uh that 5:51 there's nothing like that out there because we use bank statements to do bookkeeping very regularly in 5:56 traditional accounting So there's there was nothing there's nothing that looked like a normal bank statement out there 6:04 for us to tie back to and and the purpose for that is is in the books It's 6:09 to ensure there's no duplicates ensure there's nothing missing from the transactions right So we started with 6:17 you put in an Xpub or you put in an address into our tool and we and it spits out a bank statement and then you 6:23 from there you can manipulate that bank statement to be whatever month you're trying to you know zoom in on or year or 6:31 quarter whatever it might be last year So that's where we started And then where we're going from the uh from there 6:37 is plugging that code base into QuickBooks uh to basically feed any onchain Again 6:44 right now we're just doing onchain just to kind of get started try to get to market Um but feeding that onchain the 6:51 onchain transactions into QuickBooks so that an accountant like Joe or myself can can more easily categorize those 6:59 transactions and and keep clean books um for a bitcoin miner or for someone using 7:05 Zaprite to bill out for their services or goods that they're selling So so is 7:10 it is it going to show line by line in QuickBooks every transaction Because right now I mean I have to send all my 7:18 bank statements for my rental properties for my businesses all to my bookkeeper 7:23 She plugs it all into QuickBooks reconciles make sure it's all correct So we can have that for bitcoin is basically what you're saying Yeah Yeah 7:31 So where how we're trying to do it right now uh is is you would you would have a 7:37 there's a four review page So that's where you kind of um you would place the vendor or the customer name and then you 7:43 also categorize it whether it's a contractor expense or it's mining revenue and then you click add And right 7:49 now that would send a journal entry into QuickBooks Um and then you know it' be 7:55 wallet by wallet that would be mapped to the correct chart of account within QuickBooks Um and we we're starting with 8:01 QuickBooks really just because that's where everyone is Um but we're not uh I 8:08 would say long-term we have a grander vision of probably building a QuickBooks 8:14 competitor that is just bitcoin native that supports ecash lightning onchain Um 8:20 potentially I mean we could talk about maybe the tap routt uh thing Like to me 8:26 the only one that makes the most sense right now is maybe adding Tether support just because it's so widely used for 8:33 payments and and sending money So that's kind of where we're at right now is 8:39 looking into QuickBooks meeting customers where they're at And I really 8:45 you know I I um have met the Zaprite guys and I feel like it there's a bit of 8:51 a hurdle to actually get mass adoption for their product in that it's great to 8:57 send invoices out and get paid in bitcoin right But if I'm having to then explain to my 9:03 bookkeeper or my accountant that hey I've got this revenue coming in a totally different way and we've got to 9:10 account for that god forbid like on a sales tax return as well as an income tax return you know it just it gets 9:16 complicated quickly And so we're trying to make it where there's no hurdles a small business owner could incorporate 9:22 bitcoin into their technology stack and it would still be a seamless experience 9:29 for the people that you know do accounting for them on the back end So 9:34 um in QuickBooks like forgive me if this is like a a dumb question since I'm not an accountant but is this showing up on 9:40 the P&L or the balance sheet or both like is this viewed as an asset that's 9:46 on the balance sheet when people are accepting bitcoin or are we showing like 9:51 income and expenses How does that work Yeah so it would be set up you would just set up your uh bitcoin wallet most 10:00 likely as a bank account or even as a current asset but it would be in the asset section And so since there's you 10:06 know it's double entry accounting one side always would hit that asset account whether it's going up or down And then 10:12 the other side would would hit an expense uh account or a revenue account 10:17 or you know say uh a business owner had to contribute bitcoin into the business 10:23 from maybe a personal wallet Okay So that's going to hit an equity account So all that to say to answer your question 10:29 it hits both So if we if we bring in mining revenue that's going to increase our balance on on the balance sheet but 10:36 then it's going to also hit revenue on the P&L Yeah When I think about like people 10:41 asking is bitcoin money or is bitcoin an asset an investment Uh and then I start 10:47 thinking about you know these different reports you can generate in QuickBooks Um Yeah And and the answer is it's both 10:53 It's an asset and it's money I guess Yeah I mean from an accounting standpoint it's it's definitely an asset How bitcoin Changes Business Accounting 10:59 Um one one kind of interesting uh piece that I've thought a lot about is more 11:06 businesses that are transacting in bitcoin and holding a treasury actually want to measure their success in bitcoin 11:14 terms Um and my use case for why I set out to make this product originally was 11:20 just I just need to get on the tax return and everything on the tax return is dollar denominated right And so it 11:28 whenever you receive income in bitcoin like at the time you receive it the dollar conversion that's what you mark 11:34 as income and likewise with the with the expense So that's how our software does 11:39 does everything right now But I do envision a world where and I think that's why we might have our our hand 11:46 forced to create a QuickBooks competitor Um because businesses might want to 11:52 toggle their balance sheet to see well what does my balance sheet look like today and and maybe we do a comparison 11:58 to a year a year ago So so what's grown Has have assets grown Have liabilities 12:04 gone down or liabilities up You know we want to see that comparison But maybe I want to see it in dollars but I also 12:10 want to see it in sats uh to see like is my business growing you know on a 12:17 bitcoin standard And so that that is the other piece Right now there's no SATs uh 12:22 support in QuickBooks There is there is bitcoin multicurrency but it is it only 12:30 goes out two decimal places It's uh it's basically unusable unless you're just dealing with 12:36 very large numbers Have you seen Kuber Um it's a it's kind of a No I don't 12:43 think so It's a net worth tracker for like high net worth individuals and 12:49 family offices but you can denominate your net worth in bitcoin Oh wow Okay 12:54 And so it's interesting because uh I have I have real estate I have bitcoin I 13:00 have businesses Uh and it it's just it's 13:05 interesting seeing the dynamics It's one of the aha moments that I had realizing I need to get rid of some of my real 13:10 estate Uh because my net worth was going down over time when I denominated in 13:16 bitcoin because I have so much real estate It's like I need to get rid of this 13:22 Yeah No we could talk I mean there's a there's a few different uh directions we could go with real estate And what's 13:29 been one thing that's been interesting in this whole journey is that I've met so many more bitcoiners because I'm a 13:36 part of the this small team that's building this product I mean so we have two software engineers uh kind of front 13:42 end backend uh that are working on building out my my dream or whatever 13:48 right Um and then I'm more so the sales guy but also the accounting guy to know 13:54 you know this is what the product needs to actually do and accomplish So but all that to say I've done a ton of events 14:01 Joining up at bitcoin Park in January was the best money we we probably will 14:06 ever spend in this business I think just because of the high quality connections 14:11 that I've been able to make and get really good feedback from people who I 14:16 think are prospective customers uh you know whether it's Joe at Satoshi Pacioli 14:22 or it's downstream you know uh you know something like OpenSats that's paying out contractors all over the world and 14:29 we need to be able to track that right so anyways all that to say meet the 14:35 meeting people in Nashville in Austin going to some different conferences this year already has just been great I told 14:43 I told my wife I was like even if Bitment doesn't work out the amount of people that I've been able to add to my role 14:48 decks has just been mindboggling and it's just been a great experience So 14:54 yeah No I mean that's all incredible to hear and I it's really interesting in what you're building out And I think one 15:00 of the pieces that you know you you mentioned the Zaprite guys and some of the things that they've talked about too is like understanding what bitcoiners 15:07 need first in order to bring these products to market and you're taking a really interesting approach because you 15:12 to what you were just describing understand what bitcoiners need but also have played in the other side where you 15:18 know like what works with QuickBooks and how this works out Um so the question that I'm I've been thinking of is is as 15:25 you lead that transformation what are some of those ways that you're getting people to understand this is why you 15:31 need to do it now with the current system that we have in QuickBooks but here's where we're going in the future 15:36 and how it will be better like what are some of the what are some of the pain points that people are bringing up uh that helps you kind of you know 15:42 understand the customer's need and and identify that there's a that there's an opportunity for um for that in the 15:48 market Yeah I would say right now what ends up happening is you potentially run 15:56 two parallel books You run a bitcoin you know you've got your kind of bitcoin books and then you've got your fiat 16:02 books And that's really not helpful for anyone because I get you know it's it's 16:07 not impossible to combine those by way of probably building a Excel template that you drop the two P&Ls in um and 16:15 then it combines it manually for you But that's the biggest like one of the bigger pieces is I want everything in 16:22 one spot especially if I'm an investor in a bitcoin startup Um obviously we 16:28 have tax and um you know down the road there will be more audit compliance that has to happen for businesses as they 16:35 grow And so that's been one piece And then you know you hear this whole debate 16:41 that I I mean even just this year going to some of the events um and listening to guys like Parker Lewis at Zaprite 16:48 talk about well is is bitcoin going to fail if it's not used as medium of 16:53 exchange And um and I think that right now it's if we don't have the tooling to 17:02 back up the accounting piece it's such a headache for a small business owner to 17:08 make that jump that they're just not going to do it You know a great example I think and one more thing to answer 17:14 your question is like you know credit card processing fees as I'm talking to my barber when he cuts my hair and we're 17:20 kind of just talk because I do you know I do his stuff as well and you know you 17:26 get talking about oh the 3% credit card processing fee like it adds up for even a small business that you know may only 17:32 be grossing you know hundred or $200,000 a year uh they have fairly high margins 17:38 service business and but it's it adds up and I'm like in my head I'm like if we could just put an iPad out like what we 17:46 have at bitcoin Park right You plug in the dollar amount and you pay over 17:51 lightning Um but that small business owner like he's not a bitcoiner right He just his whole thing is dude if you 17:58 could figure out a way to save me 3% on my gross receipts across the board Oh 18:04 I'm interested in that I don't I don't care about bitcoin but I that helps me you know potentially take a nicer 18:11 vacation or save up for an engagement ring or whatever it is right So that's where I'm just trying to meet 18:19 normies honestly where they're at with the whole bitcoin play because I've talked to enough bitcoiners and sure we 18:25 can go down a rabbit hole of like privacy and um and a lot of different things that bitcoiners are very 18:31 passionate about and all those things I think are great but when I talk to normal people in my firm you know who 18:38 are just clients who don't touch bitcoin that's not really their highest priority you know maybe from a privacy standpoint 18:44 QuickBooks already has all their data They're completely docked So you like so we're just trying to meet people where 18:51 they're at and and try to onboard them to bitcoin for the reasons that are important to them and and really just 18:57 make the the back end seamless for reporting purposes Yeah And I'm glad you said that because 19:03 I think sometimes in you know the bitcoin space we can get in that a bit of that you know echo chamber and trying 19:09 to trying to really push forward as many of the ideals as we can without really weighing 19:15 the trade-offs of what it takes to meet people where they're at and you know what that will look like And it's it's 19:21 very interesting as you're talking to you know normies and people who aren't interested in the space on what those 19:26 misconceptions might be but then also what's realistic for them in order to make that leap Because to your point 3% 19:33 that can add up a lot over time But if you're just talking about in a one-off scenario they'll say "Eh well I don't really care about 3% That's a small 19:39 number." But then if you can show them that with an asset that's appreciating over time then that 3% actually turns 19:46 into something that is a much larger a much larger like oh crap I want to hop on this boat Um and it's it's a constant 19:54 it's a constant weighing of the opportunity costs and the pros and cons Um but as long as to your point if we 20:00 can have the tools that are as easy as possible where it's like plugandplay or you know here's an iPad scan this QR 20:06 code and and you're good to go because it's that easy then it's almost like why 20:12 why not Why not for for this for this person Yeah And I'll speak to one other Bitment’s Next Step: Solving Tax Pain Points 20:17 you know another piece that I hear some people talk about and actually I would probably butt up with Parker on this 20:23 point where he you know he makes the point of like the cap gains is not an impediment And I'm like in my head I 20:30 think the cap gains piece is an impediment I just do I mean I understand that people can get over that but again 20:37 if you're talking to the normie and they're like "Look I already feel kind of overwhelmed because we've got to file 20:43 this escort tax return and my personal and you know I've got all these moving pieces and I'm trying to make sure we're 20:48 profitable." Like adding in one more layer of wait so every time I earn it 20:55 and then so we have to market as revenue at that time then then if I send it to a contractor that's considered a sale And 21:02 you know the tooling the tax tooling right now I generally send people to 21:07 coin tracker.io that that tool for the cap gains and losses Um it's not perfect and 21:15 there's no way to reconcile from the accounting standpoint to know again that it's actually accurate So that's been 21:23 one of the biggest takeaways is I wasn't focused on the tax when I first when we first got into it I saw the gaping hole 21:30 in in accounting and so I said let's focus on that but the more conversations 21:36 I've had uh I think tax is something I mean we we can see you know we can dream 21:42 we can see what's going to come out of this tax bill that uh was supposed to pass this month I guess by Memorial Day 21:48 just came out a few days ago said that now they're shooting for July 4th for the new tax bill to pass but you know I 21:54 can kind of dream that oh if we got a de minimis rule that was passed through on that on bitcoin That'd be incredible 22:01 Um but realistically you know maybe that's a 5 or 10% probability We're 22:07 probably a year from now we're probably still sitting with having to report capital gains um on every transaction 22:15 Even though even though almost no one actually you know is fully compliant 22:21 with that you know if like I bought a I brought I bought a little drink at at uh bitcoin Park last night Am I going to 22:27 actually go that Of course I am right No So 22:33 well we'll bleep that out Well you should I'm just saying you should you should go report it But I'm just saying 22:40 in all reality it's so difficult to track that right now that let's just say 22:46 even if someone wanted to it'd be difficult right Is is BitM going to be solving that problem Like if I am a 22:53 business owner and I pay contractor and that's you know capital gains event Yeah 22:59 Yeah Right now so right now we're focused on getting the QuickBooks uh piece deployed as quickly as possible 23:06 But the cool thing is we have we will have a lot of cost basis data within our 23:11 software just because for example if a minor receives rewards we have we know 23:17 what that was when they received it That's their cost basis on those UTXOs And so depending on what um you know 23:26 what method cost basis method they're using we could fairly easily build that 23:31 for some portion of their transactions Where it gets tricky is if someone's 23:37 also purchasing bitcoin through Swan River 23:42 um bitcoin well what whatever it might be And if and based on the conversations 23:49 I've had with some of the people at those exchanges they're not it's not a 23:54 high priority for them to build an API with us And so that makes the user experience What about the strike API 24:02 Yeah we could probably do it with if there's an API we could definitely we could do it Um and and we would do that because my 24:10 my like perfect world is you log into BitMint you connect maybe one or two 24:15 exchange accounts where you've been purchasing and then that pulls in all of that cost basis data and then it also 24:23 connects with any sells if you had to sell any because we're we're really building this tool right this moment for like a minor They're they're just like 24:30 the most uh obvious kind of customer for us So they're having to sell and that 24:36 creates those capital gain uh events Um so all I'd say yes we are going to build 24:43 that in because I don't think that's going away I wish it were but I don't think it's going away And I think I was 24:50 a little surprised to hear that so many bitcoiners were like I would love you all to do that as well because I just 24:56 rather would not use a coin tracker that that supports every new coin under the 25:03 sun right And maybe it wasn't clear enough but we are bitcoin only um with 25:09 the small exception potentially for something like Tether uh just to get something like that into QuickBooks But 25:15 that yeah I would be very surprised if there's anything else that really pops up that makes a lot of sense to add for 25:21 bitcoiners Well and it's really interesting that you say the tracking piece because when 25:26 this is I guess we're coming at it from a different perspective you being more you know in the numbers and in the books 25:31 Um and I look at it more from just like the human behavior side of things And when I hear when I hear people don't 25:38 want to spend bitcoin because of the capital gains tax it's because of that like mental hurdle of having to pay that tax versus they're holding dollars and 25:45 it's like you spend a dollar and you don't feel like you're paying an extra tax on that So I actually really like 25:50 how um how Jack Mullers has framed you know capital gains tax as actually being a good thing because you're 25:55 outperforming the fiat you know decline But to what you were just saying if the 26:00 tools aren't in place where it's simple enough to to uh track it and you know be 26:05 compliant on your on your whether it's quarterly or annual uh reports then yeah 26:11 that's going to inhibit it because nobody wants to be outside of compliance when dealing with taxes in the IRS Um 26:16 and I think that's that's exactly you know why they're we're in this period of 26:22 to what you to repeat what you said bu bringing meeting people where they're at and bringing these tools to them Um so 26:28 they can they have the option because once you have the option I mean bitcoiners have shown that we're willing to have you know two different two 26:35 different uh systems going at once One tracking our bitcoin holdings the other tracking our fiat holdings And just as 26:42 more you know people like yourself are getting fully like fully embraced in the space and and 26:48 bringing these tools and products to market it shows that proof of work of like no this is this is happening and and it's coming and and I think uh as as 26:56 long as that can be as simple and seamless as possible then people will embrace it And that and and then that 27:02 that sentiment shifts because the perspective not necessarily of oh I don't want to spend my bitcoin because I 27:08 don't want to pay more taxes changes to no I can spend it because I'm outperforming the dollar and my 27:14 purchasing power is going up and you know etc etc So so I that that excites 27:20 me Um and and I appreciate you you uh you kind of giving that giving that overview because because I like I said I 27:27 was thinking at it more from no I I want to pay the capital gains because that means that I am outperforming inflation 27:35 Yeah No I I agree Um it's definitely a reporting thing and it's and it really 27:41 comes down to tracking the cost basis I don't know if you all were following at all the the whole like um safe harbor 27:48 ruling stuff that came out It was supposed to go into effect early this year Um but then got pushed out That I 27:55 think that kind of lit a fire under some of the people that I uh work with to to say I really have to get my cost basis 28:01 stuff all in order Um but that got pushed back Now again we'll kind of see 28:07 where everything goes with the tax bill but um but again I think it is a good thing to be organized with your UTXOs I 28:15 mean it's just good to right to have everything consolidated And while you do that maybe we should also go ahead and 28:21 build a a template that shows here's a breakdown of each UTXO uh subset and the 28:27 cost basis associated with it so that Yeah So that it's straightforward I mean how I even think about like a nightmare 28:34 We need your product so much man No I know I mean how I think about it is you Privacy & Proof 28:40 know if you're a day trader and you're using your Fidelity account right Fidelity is sending you your 1099s at 28:47 the end of the year that shows all your activity And so but but bitcoin 28:52 obviously doesn't have a centralized uh issuers is decentralized So I think 28:57 someone has to step in that gap and say "Look we we don't control your bitcoin 29:03 We're we're you're giving us viewing access only If you're if you're hardcore about 29:09 privacy and I would recommend everyone like just give us a burner email and we 29:15 we haven't like nailed down exactly the user you know whether it's like something like Obscura where it's just a 29:20 10-digit account number Obviously I don't want to know anything about our customer like I don't want if you're 29:27 good on your privacy on chain I don't want to know anything about you because I just don't want that liability as a 29:33 company to know so and so has x amount of bitcoin right So as long as you're good on the onchain um privacy then 29:41 there's no problem with giving us the viewing access The viewing access then builds the reports and then that's uh 29:47 used for all kinds of things I mean you just you'd want to know your activity 29:53 and you would want to have that saved in your files Um and I'll tell you why in 29:59 just a second And then you'd also yeah you want all the tax reporting And you know as the number grows that we could 30:06 you know we're not in a targeted group right this moment because of how the election went in November but things 30:11 change very quickly And so we want to make sure that no matter who's in power we are all basically protected if the 30:19 IRS ever were to turn on us and say "We're going to come down really hard especially because bitcoin's at a 30:24 million and we don't and maybe we are we don't think everyone's reporting everything correctly." We I want to live 30:30 in a world where bitcoiners can say to the IRS "Look right here I can show you exactly how I got to my figures and 30:37 here's my proof Here's my backup." Um but real quick a quick story which I 30:43 didn't um you know this is another one that I've kind of been building on with a client of like a client in trusted advisors So he's getting audited well 30:50 he's been under an audit for 1718 for probably like four years now but he uh 30:57 you know like some bitcoiners you know got into shitcoins and trading and all 31:03 that kind of stuff back in 1718 and the IRS came back to him and said um 31:11 you know we hired chain analysis and we you know we're basically 31:17 um we don't agree with what you put on your tax return And he's like well okay So now that so then he actually hired a 31:24 tax attorney cuz it's a it's I generally don't do that in my practice like go and 31:30 fight the IRS You know I'll write letters back and forth but audits and all that It's just not something that I 31:35 have a ton of experience with So I was fine with him going to you know an attorney up in New York who's going to 31:41 help him fight that But the problem with it is he doesn't have great proof to go 31:47 back to the IRS and actually say "No my cost basis isn't zero My cost basis is 31:53 is X." Because right now what they're trying to do is tax him on the full gain because he doesn't have great proof to 31:58 show that what he bought what he bought whatever coins at And then a lot of the exchanges he was using either they've 32:04 shut they've since shut down their US uh you know their US comp or uh you know 32:11 I'm trying to say operation or they're just out of business altogether All that to say the IRS is 32:18 saying okay if you if you just prove prove your cost basis and 32:24 he's scrambling He's like well I don't know I'm gonna try Um so I hear that 32:30 story and I think man I don't want any bitcoiners to be in that situation Let's 32:35 create reports you know have every everyone can download PDFs save them to 32:41 a local file um on their computer hard drive and and just yeah be able to prove 32:48 exactly what we're reporting on our tax returns Um especially for a normal person especially for someone in their 32:54 50s who's like not an anarchist guy you know is like "Oh take it tear it all 32:59 down." Someone who's like wealthy and wants to protect their assets and 33:04 everything be above board they need these statements for a multitude of reasons So and will it aggregate from 33:11 multiple exchanges Yeah So that yeah that's a great that's a great question because yeah for like 33:17 an individual the product I see I see the product being almost no bitcoiner I 33:23 know um holds all their bitcoin in one place right and so they it's spread out 33:28 for different purposes and so yeah one thing our tool does just for an individual would consolidate all your 33:35 holdings in uh onto one like consolidated account statement and that 33:40 way I I like it because okay now I go show this to my wife and she knows 33:46 exactly the different accounts and the balances and the activity that's you 33:52 know moving every every which way right Medium of Exchange is sponsored by 33:57 the bitcoin payments adviser If you own or run a business and you'd like to accept bitcoin but don't know how the 34:04 bitcoin payments adviser can help From specific software recommendations and accounting implications to training 34:11 employees and marketing so your customers know you accept this new form of payment The bitcoin Payments Adviser 34:17 can help simplify your journey in accepting bitcoin for your business Check out bitcoin 34:23 paymentsadvisor.com Again that's bitcoin paymentsadvisor.com Now let's get back to the show 34:29 You mentioned that to me the other day uh when we ran into each other at Bitblock Boom and I was like actually 34:36 that would be really helpful if I could like show it to my wife and show it to my financial adviser and just like in 34:42 that meeting here's a PDF document and you know it' be really helpful Yeah And 34:47 then even for it could be stowed within you know your estate planning documents as well or at least could be updated um 34:54 from time to time based on how the holdings have changed Um so yeah Yeah I 35:01 mean I'm I think I wish I wish it's it was something that was already out there it'd be better to just probably buy it 35:08 as a as an accountant but um yeah someone's got ability because there's no central issuer and so we have to someone 35:17 has to do the reporting So you mentioned the need for better 35:22 reporting You mentioned someone needs to step into that gap that this is a major 35:29 bottleneck for regular folks business owners accepting and trading using this 35:36 new form of payment uh this new form of money What gave you the courage to build 35:42 this I mean you're taking on a pretty big risk You could pretty easily just sit there and hodddle Yeah Well okay So Solving On-Chain Reporting 35:50 obviously I can't build this product because I'm not technical and um so I 35:56 had to find a partner to actually do the the behind the scenes and yeah even with 36:01 AI it's you know I've heard all the stories oh yeah you can like build stuff with AI but then talk to a couple people 36:06 and they're like well until it breaks or there's a bug and then you know probably need to have some bad 36:12 code Yeah Yeah Yeah Shout out to Marty by the way I saw that he he put something out uh yesterday or something 36:20 So no I mean I could have done that I don't I generally am like if it's out of 36:26 my expertise like if my toilet breaks I'm not the guy who's going to go watch a YouTube video I'm just going to go 36:31 hire an expert uh to go do that So I found um well I I had a good friend from 36:36 college um Kendall and we actually did a podcast 36:42 together about bitcoin probably starting in 22 And um we're having a lot of fun 36:47 with that But I was always like Kendall we should like dude there's so much opportunity Maybe we start something And 36:53 I've been like pulling his pant leg to start this specific business for about a year and a half Um he was always too 37:01 busy you know he worked at Coin Metrics for a while and then he was at TBD 37:07 um for maybe two years and then when they shut down in November I guess uh 37:15 they reached out to all all the people on that team and gave him the option to go work elsewhere within Square and 37:22 Kindle basically um decided to leave And so called me up and was like "Oh I got 37:27 laid off." And I was like "This is great." So um we kind of got much more serious about what the product would 37:34 look like And it's been funny because Kendall's obviously not an accountant and I'm not a developer So we've we've 37:41 to try to you know join our brains together to uh to actually hack it 37:47 together So and it sounds like it's actually you know Kendall could speak to it much better than I can but building 37:53 the indexer to actually convert UTXOs into double entry accounting data 38:01 Um it sounds like it's actually a pretty difficult problem to solve and that's also on our road map to open source um 38:09 that data pipeline uh code that he built because it yeah it might be useful um 38:15 for for everyone down the road So I love that But I mean I I see a pretty broad 38:21 you know even with banks like that that's like a home run kind of play for me Again I'm not like I don't love banks 38:29 but I just I think banks are going to custody bitcoin for their clients Um whether that's one two three years down 38:35 the road and someone's got to build that statement for their customer accounts Again I don't think I would just be 38:42 surprised if they if they're able to build um you know bank statements by 38:48 calling the blockchain and and putting that into a customer account using a Xpub or or whatever it might be So I do 38:55 see I just see a lot of opportunity whether it's you know there's the guys over at Sound HSA they're trying to 39:01 build an HSA product they need the reporting for onchain bitcoin the banks 39:06 the insurance companies like an Anchorwatch um yeah it's one of those things it's 39:12 like almost so simple and we take these little bank statements that most people just never even look at We take it so 39:18 for granted but if you're operating in like the traditional finance world those have to be done you know Well lenders as 39:26 well like every rental property that I've ever bought like I tried giving them back in the day 2017 I guess I 39:33 tried giving them screenshots of my Coinbase account as like assets and they were like "WTF is this?" Like "What We 39:40 can't use this you know like give us a PDF We need to see a bank statement," you know Yeah Absolutely So so yeah I I 39:49 think it's um the the main thing I'm most excited about is I think all of us want our family members and our friends 39:56 and our colleagues to be using bitcoin as quickly as possible because we know how it's changed our lives in I would 40:04 say multiple ways right Obviously it's made us wealthier because it is a better 40:09 form of money But then it makes you ask questions that at least I wasn't asking before about a whole slew of topics And 40:17 so I want more people using bitcoin And I just want all the tooling to be built 40:23 as quickly as possible to make it where there's no there's no impediment You 40:28 don't have any excuse to not use bitcoin So I'm so happy that you exist Jordan 40:34 that you took the lead Yeah man This is what we need One one quick thing that might be a bit 40:40 of a tangent that has come up Actually it was a guy that I met down in Dallas at BitBlock Boom Older guy met him He's 40:48 from California He's a he's a real estate investor in California And he's 40:53 dead set on he wants to convert all of his bit or all of his real estate into bitcoin And this guy's like if I didn't 41:01 already mention he's 75 years old U he came to that conference by himself we've 41:07 we've befriended each other and now we're uh you know it's nothing official but I'm just trying to kind of talk him 41:13 through what it might look like because that's the other piece is you you probably know this too Jason you know if 41:19 you've got some you got some capital unrealized capital gains locked up 41:24 within real estate in this guy's case a lot of it's fully depreciated I mean it's be a large tax bill to convert over 41:32 to bitcoin so we're trying to get creative with how it might look um to do 41:38 I don't know whether it's just hey just pay the taxes on on it or is there a way to for example I've gotten connected 41:45 with one guy that at least gave the pitch maybe go into mining um because 41:50 you know there's tax benefits we could section 179 the uh equipment and have that offset the cap gains on selling the 41:59 real estate you want to hear what I did let's hear it I want to know yeah so it 42:05 depends on what your end goal is Yeah Right Is it is it like charity your kids What is it And so 42:16 this is this is not helpful if it's your kids but it's extremely helpful if it's 42:21 charity So you can give away a house 42:26 through through a donor advice fund You can hold it in self-custody multi-IG 42:33 open up a DAFF with Unchained and you hold 100% you know it's it's cold 42:39 storage You got one key Unchain has a key The DAFF has a key that the the it's 42:45 use um uh I can't remember I I could tell you I could I'm sure I'll think of 42:51 it but they use they use this um DAFF organization right Yeah Or donor advice 42:56 fund And uh and then you pay Uncle Sam 0 on all of the capital gains Okay Now if 43:04 you're trying to give it to children on the first year right to Uncle Sam but uh 43:09 Yeah Yeah You get the Mhm Yes you do The the year that you make the sale is when 43:16 you get to count it as um you know charitable donations Yeah Yeah I mean 43:23 I'll have to cuz I don't think this guy has any children So any I mean I'm just trying to explore He came to me with one 43:30 idea that he had kind of heard online from this consultant guy that kind of sounded a little sketchy to me where he 43:36 was like "Well I can I can contribute to this trust and then sell it." Basically 43:42 try to do a 1031 into bitcoin versus real estate but do it through this 43:47 complex trust thing And I was like I don't know dude that you might not want to be Yeah you might not want to be the 43:54 guinea pig that tries that out and then have to go show up in front of tax court and like argue that that's legit Um I 44:01 know I've heard at least Eric Trump talk about that he would like to see 1031 44:07 exchange extended to bitcoin be that'd be interesting But all that to say even 44:12 the fact that we ran into a guy like that who has gone down the bitcoin rabbit hole showed up to an event by 44:18 himself at such you know at an age that you know a lot of us are younger guys I 44:23 was really impressed by that and the fact that he's like I want to get into bitcoin Um and I want to try to do it 44:29 the most tax efficient way So so yeah we will see where that goes Um it's not 44:35 just for the young bucks Absolutely bitcoin is for everyone It is So spans 44:40 to generations So Jordan I know you Oh go ahead 44:47 I I was gonna ask another question but if you have something to say No no no you're good Go go for it Sweet Um well 44:52 you said with Bitment right now your main kind of client is miners and that's who you're focusing on uh for building 44:59 out those products But as that continues to evolve and as you bring this to market who do you think is like the 45:05 ideal you know customer for for you Is it any business or is there a market that you think that uh would be more 45:10 ripe than others um as it continues to scale Yeah So and that's why I'm excited you bitcoin Accounting Needs 45:17 know to talk more with Jason you know online offline because I think it really 45:22 any business with high volume transactions they're prime candidate Um you know when I I've talked with some of 45:29 the guys over at Acropolis for example and you know if it's just if a company's just they just have a treasury strategy 45:37 there's you know that's 12 journal entries a year to mark up or down the bitcoin uh balance on the balance sheet 45:44 uh to dollar terms Our tool is not really helpful for someone like that An 45:50 accountant can do that fairly easily So it's really you know for example I met a guy at Bit Block Boom that was came up 45:56 and said you know I run I can't remember how many he said called 10 bitcoin ATMs 46:02 in a large city or something It's like okay this guy needs our product because 46:07 he's that's a ton of volume Um so yeah anyone who solves the problem and 46:15 correct me if I'm wrong Jason I don't think that Zaprite has quite solved the problem of uh the 46:21 POSOS So like having bitcoin you know they're an invoicing tool right So it's 46:27 good for someone like me who sends an invoice for a tax return but not maybe not the coffee shop right that they 46:34 didn't they don't necessarily integrate with a like a retail point of sale like Toast 46:39 or Clover or Square or something like that yet Uh but they do have a POSOS tab 46:45 where you can save it as a hyperlink and then you can have a phone uh or an iPad 46:51 or something uh beside the POS So we see this a lot of times you know in the 46:56 credit card processing world the world that I've lived in for years where there's proprietary 47:04 uh payment processors that these software companies have to they they force all their merchants to work with 47:09 right Like salon or mechanic industry or whatever the industry is right And the only way around it is to just set up a 47:17 separate POS like a separate credit card terminal right next to it And then you just let's say you charge the customer 47:22 $100 on the credit card terminal and you have to manually key in $100 on the POSOS It's the exact same thing with 47:28 bitcoin You can accept bitcoin today Anyone and everyone you just through Zaprite in a POS in a retail location 47:35 You just it doesn't necessarily integrate with now depending upon the size of the business that may cause a 47:40 lot of friction You have to train a bunch of employees It's like a big hassle For smaller businesses it's going to be way easier Larger business a 47:47 little more friction Yeah Yeah I mean we've been playing with we've been playing with the uh Zaprite POS in the 47:54 park in Austin uh for our you know drinks and snacks and it it works great 48:00 Good Yeah I mean cuz anyone who's billing through Zaprite I figure that 48:05 they are that small business is a prime customer for us uh to do the backend 48:12 pulling those transactions into again some accounting software whether it's what they're using today Um but I I 48:19 think that I think that our model will have to pretty quickly shift because nobody wants to pay for like a lot of 48:27 different softwares right they want to really pay for um like one probably one 48:34 or two and so I think that's there there will be some like haste on our end to try to see 48:41 what it takes to build out the full accounting suite because you know if I'm 48:46 a small business owner and I'm like well I'm already paying $70 a month for QuickBooks I'm now I'm going to pay $240 48:54 to Zaprite now I'm going to pay whatever it is for Bit ment it's like I 49:00 don't know maybe I just continue billing out of QuickBooks you know uh just 49:06 getting and getting paid dollars So I think that's that's one more hurdle is you don't you don't want to stack too 49:12 much onto a customer Uh you probably want to try to simplify things Oh and 49:19 one more would be Coin Tracker right Uh if you're having to sell or send any of 49:24 it for the tax cap gains tax What about partnerships Like I just signed up for I 49:29 have a a free fold membership because I'm a crowd health member for example Okay So I have like folds premium 49:36 account is like completely for free I get all of that for free because wow And so there's there's a synergy synergistic 49:42 element there between these companies like you know if you're Zaprite customer then you get you know Bitment 49:49 for free or whatever whatever that is Yeah I mean some 49:55 I'm totally open to that It would be interesting to see because I kind of see Zaprite as the Square kind of product 50:02 and then um you know obviously mo a lot of businesses will pay for Square uh pay 50:09 for the equipment to come in and then Square just takes uh their fee in the middle and then all of those 50:15 transactions then get shot over to QuickBooks Same with Shopify So I kind 50:21 of see Zaprite as filling that void as being you know kind of the uh 50:27 plugandplay version of BTC Pay Server just because you know I've messed around 50:33 with BTC Pay Server and I'm sure I could figure it out but it's not it's not near as easy as how how I set up my Zaprite 50:40 in probably five minutes And so I kind of see them as playing that role is 50:46 doing the payment side and then um whether it's online in person 50:52 um POSOS style or or invoices and then and then I see us as we're trying to 50:59 take QuickBooks out of the equation um over time So yeah I think that's that's 51:06 how I see it playing out So for Jordan you're a CPA you've worked with a lot of 51:12 bitcoiners Um when I brought up bitcoin 51:17 to my fir one one of the first time I brought up bitcoin to my CPA okay I this 51:23 was over the phone but I could see it so clearly visually He had his his face in 51:28 his hands like his heart rate was elevated his palms were sweaty and he 51:34 was like "Oh god oh no not a client that that has bitcoin." Okay Um second CPA Uh 51:42 same same thing Now I'm blessed I'm with Joe at Satoshi Pioli now and I can have 51:48 all the bitcoin conversations I want to have But all the other Jason K's out there who don't work with Joe like 51:54 how where do you see the the role of CPAs evolving as bitcoin adoption grows there's there's thousands of these 52:03 conversations that that you know clients are having with their CPA What do you 52:08 see that over the next like 5 10 years looking like Yeah So one small role that 52:13 that we're trying to play and I can't remember if I mentioned this to you Jason while we were in Dallas but I'm uh 52:20 I'm attempting to put on a a bitcoin for Advisors conference uh starting in 2026 52:28 And really that's born out of what you're describing with accountants but also a lot of financial advisors that I 52:35 speak with um just not not well educated on bitcoin and they're also not well 52:42 educated on why bitcoin only and why everything else probably doesn't have a 52:48 place you know in someone's portfolio or at least like have the chops to explain 52:55 you know proof of work versus proof of stake And maybe they don't need to get that ind depth but it's at least have 53:00 the understanding of what this is and why someone might be interested in in 53:06 holding their wealth in and transacting their wealth you know in this in this 53:11 new money So we're shooting for April late April of next year Uh I'm really 53:17 trying to use it as a way to call it some education but I'm assuming most of the 53:25 people who show up are going to already be bitcoiners Um they're just working in they're a CFP they're a CPA 53:33 Um or they're in insurance they're an attorney So I assume that they're 53:39 probably already going to be in it but at least allow a place for collaboration You know I've been added since again 53:45 since I've been going down this road You know Joe added me into a Telegram group with probably 40 other bitcoin 53:51 accountants and I was like "Dang I didn't even know you guys were out there This is awesome." So now you know we can 53:56 bounce ideas off of each other I want to use it as a way to to uh expose the 54:03 different tools that are out there You know have Parker come and explain Zaprite because at the end of the day 54:09 Zaprite is going to be sold by accountants you know we are targeted by 54:14 tons of software companies that say your client needs this and um and it would 54:20 and it would actually make your life and your firm much more efficient to use this tool and it's like okay and you 54:27 know some of them are like good some of them aren't aren't good but we're the ones who generally are like hey I want 54:33 you to for example hey I think we should switch from ADP for payroll I think we should switch to gusto and here's why or 54:40 I think we should switch your billing from here to Zap right My CPA who switched me to Gusto There you go Yeah 54:46 So I think I really think people like uh 54:51 you know the folks over at Ankorwatch and Zaprite and and our tool I think that they need to get exposed to as many 54:58 professionals in the space as possible because again it's great if you have a tool that solves a really cool problem 55:05 but if if the normie client doesn't know about it because they went and asked their accountant um and they were shot 55:12 down or or just they didn't know maybe they're into bitcoin they just didn't know They don't know the most up-to-date 55:17 tooling that's out there It's not super helpful So uh yeah we've I've looked around I don't 55:24 see a I know there was a bitcoin for advisors I think um Pier Rashad's wife 55:30 uh I'm blanking on her name uh put one on maybe in 22 and ran it for a couple years but last I checked that's noting 55:38 anymore Um so I've been reaching out to a lot of people even the guys over at Sound Advisory I I just think it's a hu 55:46 that's another kind of gaping hole in the market of let's get a bunch of people who uh are incorporating bitcoin 55:55 into their business whether wealth manager accountant let's get them all in a room Let's talk bitcoin Let's network 56:02 Let's collaborate together because that's how it happens in the real world You know I don't do everything There's 56:08 even certain things I would push off to a different accounting firm just because they're better at that than I am 56:14 So yeah so we'll see I'll keep I think that answer your question but I think we 56:20 need something like that to to bring more professionals into the fold If 56:25 nothing else just be educated You don't have to go all the way down the rabbit hole although you probably will 56:30 especially accountants I have a friend that's uh really good at 56:36 events His first his first name starts with the letter J and and then it ends with A 56:42 Oh okay Texas Energy Mining Summit coming up 56:47 next week This might be this might be dated by the time this pod comes out but uh yeah No I mean I mean what you were 56:54 saying like the the connection that you made with Joe at the park Like that's where these collisions happen especially 57:00 in the bitcoin world where you know the industry is still small enough where you can walk up to somebody introduce yourself and make a genuine connection 57:07 And that could happen from you know to what you were saying some of the best money you spent at the Nashville Energy 57:12 and Mining Summit back in January But it can also just happen at a monthly meetup or at you know a a one-off event that we 57:20 put on uh at the park in in Nashville or Austin I mean it's it's truly insane the the energy that I've found you know 57:26 bitcoiners to have Um because like like you Jordan I've just been meeting so 57:31 many people over the last few months that all are kind of you know we're rowing in the same direction but we're 57:37 working on slightly different things Uh and it's it's really creating these 57:43 opportunities for collaboration and saying "Oh that's something that's needed in the market Oh wait that would really help what I'm trying to do." Um 57:50 and then you just you just get each other on Signal or Telegram or whatever it may be and you're off and running 57:57 Dude it's crazy I can't say the name because I don't want to I don't want to dox him Plus he's still working at 58:04 another company full-time but literally I So I made my little intro into the 58:10 Discord for bitcoin Park back in January once I joined as a member right and um a 58:17 guy messaged me individually almost right away and was like "Oh that's very interesting that you were you're 58:22 building that accounting software." All all that to say fast forward uh three 58:27 months he's on our team We just brought him on as the second developer uh 58:33 probably uh three weeks ago and that wouldn't have happened without the connections down at bitcoin Park So all 58:41 that to say yeah if anyone's on the fence about joining bitcoin Park or uh Nashville or Austin you you definitely 58:47 should Even if you're not close or right there in the city I mean I live in Louisville I commute into the park in 58:54 Nashville about once a month try to make it for Bit Devs but it's just been great And then you know I'd love to see 59:02 something like the park happen in Louisville but you know one step at a time I guess 59:07 So well and there's so many conferences you can go to Like the point is like making those connections getting in the 59:13 real world seeing where the synergy happens and like things just bubble up Products are being built Uh jobs are 59:20 getting created There's all kinds of impact in networking that's happening Yeah No it's huge So I love it I'm glad 59:28 we uh did this I think we're are we pretty close on time I don't want to take too much of your time Yeah We'll 59:34 we'll let you go Um before we go Jordan one final question If you could wave a 59:39 magic wand you mentioned the de minimis That would be amazing But other than that and maybe you could explain to our 59:46 listeners what that even is for those who don't understand But you know if you could change one thing my listeners 59:51 explain it to me Yeah No I can go I can talk about that Yeah If you could change one thing though about how the US 59:57 government treats bitcoin and tax policy around bitcoin today what would that be The De Minimis Rule 1:00:02 Yeah I mean okay So if I could change it I would say treat bitcoin just as a 1:00:08 currency so that there's no friction You know you spend you spend it the same way 1:00:13 you spend your dollars and there's no reporting There's no you're not measuring against dollar gain over time 1:00:19 or dollar loss over time It's it's just a currency So if I had my like dream I 1:00:25 think that's what I would say But what's more realistic is is a de minimis rule 1:00:30 that's actually already that's in a bill that's that's already uh at least in the 1:00:36 Senate Um it's co-sponsored uh by I think like five or six different 1:00:41 senators and they are it's a bipartisan kind of thing It's not the it's not the bitcoin Act It's called the uh Virtual 1:00:47 Currency Tax Fairness Act and it's it's small It's like a $200 de minimis rule 1:00:53 Let me define what that means So anything if that were to pass and it and it say the $200 limit that would 1:01:01 mean that anything under that limit any specific transaction um under that limit there's no there's 1:01:08 no taxes and there's no reporting So again it's kind of a play for you go buy 1:01:14 your coffee with bitcoin you go buy a beer at the park with bitcoin and 1:01:19 there's no there's no issues And honestly again that's kind of how it already is now Um again I would say 1:01:27 everyone should report everything to the best of their ability but just in reality those small transactions aren't 1:01:34 being reported So they should just go ahead and just rip the band-aid off pass the de minimis rule and not and not 1:01:41 require this like overburdensome reporting on just normal people trying to you know purchase a beer or a coffee 1:01:49 So I think that's what I would say Um we are going to sponsor BitMint will sponsor the BPI event this uh later this 1:01:58 year in June Um and I ran into Dennis Border at in Dallas Talked with him a 1:02:04 little bit Um so I'll be curious to see where where everyone's head is at on just all all of the policy that pertains 1:02:12 to bitcoin at uh at that event in DC in June But yeah there's I think everyone 1:02:18 at this point though can just take a side relief of um obviously no government no administration is perfect 1:02:24 by any stretch but at least as an industry we can now know that we're not being targeted Uh and I think that that 1:02:33 is a huge step in the right direction So I would say I feel good about where 1:02:38 we're at with like our our existing relationship with the government Um but obviously you can never be too you you 1:02:45 should never really trust the government at all So we should be diligent to continue building the tools and 1:02:51 basically go on the offensive to to say it's not always going to be like this and it's not it won't always be like 1:02:57 this And so we should be prepared for the next administration to not be near 1:03:02 near as friendly But who knows maybe they're forced to be friendly to us because we help them uh solve their debt 1:03:09 problem with bit bonds or something right Hopefully So maybe that's the other one 1:03:14 on top of my list the Bit Bonds piece And I'm sure you all or if you're not familiar we can talk a little bit about 1:03:20 it but I mean that would be the other a huge wish list to help pay down the debt so that my two kiddos don't have to bear 1:03:27 that burden right Borrowing from future generations is like one of the top reasons why I got 1:03:34 into bitcoin Like I the more I started peeling back Yeah You know when I tell 1:03:39 people we're all living on credit card debt like if you're a citizen of really 1:03:45 any country doesn't matter You're living in fiat right Yeah And we're like the I 1:03:51 use credit card as a way to kind of connect the dots right But it's like 1:03:56 imagine if you've amassed so much credit card debt that you now you're taking on credit cards just to pay interest only on your other credit cards Yeah That's 1:04:04 disgusting Yeah So that's all my generation knows Yeah it will it will be 1:04:10 a it will be a whole uh shift in everyone's psyche to have to go back to 1:04:17 you save up money before you purchase things You know making the switch from 1:04:24 this this debt based system to you have to have proof of work You have to actually have like a job that earns more 1:04:32 than you spend You have to save up And there's just because I perceive the world being I think the interest rate 1:04:38 there might be an argument where the interest rate has to be at or above bitcoin's keer to make any sense Like 1:04:45 why would I lend you money when I could just put it in bitcoin You know what I'm saying Like if I'm going to lend you 1:04:51 money you as everyone says like the hurdle rate is is bitcoin's price appreciation So all that to say there 1:04:58 might be a world where the debt where debt goes away just because it's not 1:05:05 sustainable You're not going to pay the interest on that debt You just have to get back to basics And if you want to 1:05:12 buy a house you have to save up for it But the house is going to go down to its 1:05:18 utility value because it's not used as as a store value anymore right 1:05:24 So I could talk to you guys forever I truly think we could literally go all 1:05:31 day Like sun is setting and we're still we're still just rocking here And we haven't talked you know we haven't 1:05:36 talked about any news stuff and there's just all kinds there's always stuff to talk about with bitcoin and it's a it's 1:05:42 just a it's a fun very energetic world that we found ourselves in So it's an 1:05:47 infinite rabbit hole Yeah Jordan thank you so much for joining us today man We'll have to get you back on here at some point It's bitcoin's evolving so 1:05:54 fast I mean it'll just be a few months maybe Absolutely Well I appreciate your all's time today and and the 1:06:00 conversation Yeah we'll we'll do it again And good luck to you Jack next week I know you guys are going to kill it So thank you I appreciate it No 1:06:07 thanks for coming on This has been has been a ton of fun I learned a lot Good Very good All righty Well you all enjoy 1:06:13 the rest of your uh week All right Jordan Thank you so much man All right Bye Bye Bye See you 1:06:20 [Music]