0:00 I am very much in the camp of of grassroots. That's where my heart is. That's what I want to support. I think 0:05 it's important to get out of your comfort zone. I think it's really easy for Bitcoiners to like find Bitcoin and 0:12 get excited about it and then kind of like stay in their comfort zone and not push themselves to like learn a little bit more, be open to new perspectives. 0:19 It's such an interesting paradox about Bitcoin because it is this internet money that lives 100% online, but then 0:25 you have these physical like anchors obviously with mining being like the 0:31 core anchor, but then just meeting Bitcoiners and you know when people ask me how do I get involved or what should 0:37 I do to learn about Bitcoin? I always say just go to your local meetup. 0:47 Sweet. Yeah, I mean happy to just kick it off. Welcome back to another episode of Medium of Exchange podcast where we 0:53 talk about Bitcoin and Bitcoin adoption. Really excited to have Kiki on the show today who is working on all sorts of 1:01 really cool projects around grassroots adoption and just overall Bitcoin circular economies. So, Kiki, please 1:08 just I'm going to hand it over to you and let us know where I know where you're calling in from, but let the people know where you're calling in from 1:15 kind of some of the special things that you're working on. Awesome. Thank you. It's super um exciting to be here. I remember when you 1:21 guys like first posted that you were doing this podcast and I was like, "Yes, this is this is what I want to see." Um 1:28 yeah, so I'm Kiki. I'm originally from Canada, from the Toronto area. Um, I left Canada back in 2021 and spent six 1:36 months in the south of Mexico and then moved to El Salvador, which is where like my Bitcoin kind of journey and and 1:42 working in the space really accelerated. I started learning about Bitcoin in 2020. But it was like actually being in 1:48 El Salvador and using it in person that made it um really cement in my mind that 1:54 like this is exactly where I wanted to focus my efforts on. And so right now I'm kind of wearing a couple of 2:00 different hats, doing a couple of different things. My primary um like responsibility and and the thing that 2:06 like lights me up every day is working on adopting Bitcoin, which is a conference held in El Salvador um in 2:11 November every year. We're going into our fifth um and there's so many goodies. I'm sure we'll talk about them. 2:16 I'm super excited about it. I also joined the My First Bitcoin team in January on the board of directors. So 2:24 with my first Bitcoin, we do a lot of Bitcoin education um around the world. It was headquartered in El Salvador, 2:30 started in El Salvador, but every new place that I go, I meet new people who are like teaching the diploma, which is 2:35 really exciting, uh all around the world. And I co-ounded the Bitcoin Farmers Market in El Salvador as well. I'm not actively involved in the 2:41 organization there anymore, but it is, I think, a really amazing project and will continue to thrive. It's essentially a 2:48 farmers market where all of the vendors accept Bitcoin. So, anyone can come in and buy their goods in Bitcoin as well. 2:53 That's Yeah, that's awesome because like that is that is spreading grassroots adoption. And that's actually where we 2:59 met at Grassroots Bitcoin back in April at the unconference, the me premier Bitcoin and just such good work that 3:06 they're doing with the diploma and the node network and all that sorts of stuff. And I want to kind of start off 3:11 by taking a little bit of a step back in terms of what you were sharing of growing up in Canada and then exploring the south of Mexico and ending up in El Kiki's Transition from Canada to El Salvador 3:19 Salvador. And right around that time was when the announcements of Bitcoin 3:24 becoming legal tender was really like permeating into the scene. So, can you just walk us through like what what you 3:30 were working on before and how you ended up being like, "Oh, actually, El Salvador seems like a cool place to to 3:35 eventually move to and start building from the ground up like at really like 3:41 like the beginning uh to what now is people just using Bitcoin all the time." 3:48 Yeah. Yeah. So, my background um is in the restaurant industry in Toronto. I 3:54 started working when I was really young. My dad worked in restaurants from when he was really young and he just thought it was a very like formative experience 4:01 and and gives you a lot of character. So I got into it really young and fell in love with the industry. I'm kind of a 4:06 people person. I like in-person like physical experiences. So I did that for quite a while. But I started working a 4:13 lot really young which me meant that I like didn't really have time to travel or like learn about anything outside of 4:21 my industry. I love what I did, but it kind of like stunted my growth and it also stunted like my financial education 4:27 growth because I wasn't really saving that much. I was kind of living paycheck to paycheck. I would save a little bit 4:33 here and there, but like it just wasn't something that what seemed accessible to me. And I had no knowledge and I was 4:39 super overwhelmed by the idea of like personal saving, investments, everything like that. like me 10 years ago to think 4:47 that I'm in this space and in this place now is like unfathomable, you know what I mean? But in my role there, like in 4:55 the restaurant industry, I I started managing as well. So, I was managing other people's money and that gave me an 5:01 insight as to like, okay, maybe I need to start thinking about this a little bit more. And someone that I was working 5:06 with introduced me to to Bitcoin, my exartner. So, I had heard about it 5:11 before, but never really took it seriously. didn't feel like I had the time to understand what it was, but 5:17 because this person was interested in it, that made me interested in it. And then in March 2020 when we got locked 5:22 down, it was like there's no better time to like learn about this thing. And instead of going like deep dive into it 5:28 because I kind of tried to do that. I've always been a big Twitter user. And so I looked up Bitcoin on Twitter and I was 5:34 like, whoa, what is all of this? So I kind of like decided to take a step back and think more about just money in 5:41 general and finances in general. And I did a couple of online courses about like macroeconomics and stuff like that, 5:47 which is where I learned what fractional reserve banking was. And I thought, okay, so like I knew there was a 5:53 problem. I just didn't really know what it was. Like let's get into this more. And that kind of set the groundwork. And 5:58 then because we were locked down, I was still working in restaurants a little bit, but I kind of slowly transitioned into working online doing like sales for 6:06 a POS company. So that gave me a little bit more insight into like how the tech powering restaurants worked. And one of 6:12 the major factors when you're in that world is of course payments and the fees 6:17 that come with payments, right? So, as I was learning about Bitcoin and people potentially using Bitcoin, you know, as First Experiences with Bitcoin Transactions 6:23 as money, I was seeing these companies that were charging like crazy rates for credit card fees and stuff like this in 6:30 an industry that already has like very very very thin margins as it is. And I was like, "Wow, this is like an an 6:36 amazing solution, especially in places that have a lot of tourists and there's like currency exchanged involved." But I 6:42 like still at that point didn't have the knowledge or maybe even the confidence to like put two and two together. But I 6:49 got kind of sick of being locked down in Toronto. It was cold and dark and just like, you know, I always wanted an 6:55 opportunity to travel and that seemed like an interesting time to do it. Mexico was open for people to come and 7:02 and go to. So, we went to Mexico first for 6 months in a city called Wajaka in the south. It was like a wonderful 7:09 experience, but we didn't really meet any other Bitcoiners or any other like like-minded people. So, it didn't really 7:15 feel like the place to stay. Um, and I remember sitting kind of trying to work, but also having the live stream for the 7:22 first year of adopting Bitcoin going on on a computer on the side and tuning into that and seeing what was going on 7:27 in El Salvador. And that's when like the idea came to mind, okay, if we're not going to stay here, maybe we should 7:32 consider this place as an option. And when we first went, which was in April of 2022, I had no idea that like things 7:39 were going to turn out the way that they did and that I was going to stay for 3 years and that sort of thing. It was kind of like, okay, let's let's check 7:46 this out and see. And I remember my first Bitcoin purchase which made me really nervous because at the time I was 7:52 like, "My god, like I've been saving this thing and like I have so much respect for it and now I'm like spending 7:57 it on a bottle of water. I'm going to regret this." Right? Like that classic situation. But it just became more and 8:03 more nor normal. And then more services were available for me to pay in Bitcoin. And at the time I was still getting paid 8:10 um Canadian dollars into a Canadian bank account. So trying to get like US dollars in cash was doable. but like not 8:17 a pleasant experience and expensive. It just was a natural progression. And then 8:22 I took some time off of work and I thought, okay, this is I'm going to start volunteering or like just trying 8:27 to work on different projects and seeing what comes of it. Put a lot of time and energy into the 8:34 farmers market, which led to the opportunity to start working with adopting Bitcoin last year um in 2024. 8:41 And this year, um, I'm kind of running the head of operations and joined the My First Bitcoin team. Hopefully that 8:47 covers it mostly. No, that's that's amazing. And Jason has extensive background in payments and can 8:55 go deep into the technicals and all that sorts of fun stuff of of how these um, 9:01 small businesses are getting squeezed. So Jason, I'm sure you have like a bunch of questions that just came up based off 9:06 of based off Okay. I I do have a question though, which is let's go back to that first The Impact of Bitcoin on Local Economies 9:12 transaction. So tell me tell me Okay, so you bought a bottle of water, right? Mhm. 9:17 And how how did that go? How did that feel? I mean, you've come a long way. Yeah. 9:22 But tell us about that first one. Yeah, it was honestly scary. Like like I 9:28 said, I I had this moment of no, now I'm like really doing it. I'm really spending it. I'm gonna am I going to regret this? Do I regret it already? Um 9:36 what's going on here? Kind of thing. But I was kind of like, okay, it's a it's a bottle of water. It's a dollar. I know 9:41 that dollar is going to be worth a lot more in the future, but right now I'm participating in this thing that I came here for, so let's just try it out. And 9:48 that was also like my first time using the Lightning Network, which I had, you know, heard about and seen about on 9:55 Twitter, but first interaction. It was in a custodial platform, so like the 10:00 payment was fine. It was smooth. Everything was fine. But yeah, it did instill a little bit of fear, but like 10:05 it was like every little purchase like made it feel a little bit more comfortable. And then being there, 10:12 especially at that time, which was um like beginning of the rainy season or summer in 2022, there was still people 10:19 who were coming to El Salvador at that time, but not nearly as much as it is now. So, the community, the Bitcoiners 10:25 who had like gone there or were staying there long term or living there was really small and tight-knit. And that 10:31 was good in a way for for my experiences because I was able to like ask questions 10:36 and not feel like I don't know like like feel like I was asking dumb questions. There was always people around to help 10:42 and they were people that I like trusted and we could sit and like have these conversations and anytime a new like 10:48 restaurant or service provider announced that they were accepting Bitcoin, it was like, "Oh, okay. Let's go support these guys. Oh, let's go support these guys. 10:54 And it just became more and more normal to the point that now I'm like when I go places and I'm like, yeah, I have to 11:00 like pay in fiat. I don't have any fiat, so I guess I got to solve that problem now. 11:09 So I I love it. So your number go up. You were concerned, you know, the value 11:16 of this Bitcoin is going to go up in the future. I know that. And so it sounds like that was kind of one of the big 11:22 concerns. But you also mentioned ear like in the very 11:27 beginning when you first started I wrote this down using it in person is what really cemented it in my mind. So tell 11:33 us about that. Like you you mentioned the word participation. You're not no longer just hodddling. You're not just 11:39 saving in Bitcoin. You're actually you know participating in this new economy. Why? 11:44 Yeah. For you. Yeah. It's I think the thing that like really helped cement it was the fact Grassroots Adoption and Community Engagement 11:50 that like Elzante especially at that time it's it's changed a lot. There's been a lot of like upgrades, 11:56 construction, that sort of thing. But at that time and especially in rainy season, it you know it's a really small surf town and it hasn't always been the 12:04 most well-kept and not everybody who lives there like well actually most locals like they don't have a lot of of 12:12 money. they don't have a lot of access to financial tools, to education, that sort of thing. So, one thing that I like 12:19 tried to remind myself is like I'm parting with like my STS right now, but I'm like giving them to somebody who may 12:25 turn around and and and change it to fiat, but they also may save it or save a portion of it, and this could like 12:32 really drastically increase their quality of life as well. So, it felt like a like a very like just helpful 12:38 exchange for the recipient and that was something that kind of like eased my 12:43 mind about it, I guess, and made me feel a little bit more open to it. And just like the reaction to on both 12:50 sides, like when you're sending your first transaction or your first transactions or when you're receiving 12:55 them, like it's a fun experience. Like you you can theorize about these things all all the time, but when you get the 13:00 check mark come up on your phone in your wallet and you're like, "Oh, cool. I did it." like that was fun. What next? You 13:07 know, it's it's a positive feeling and that just plays into like wanting to to do it more. 13:12 No, 100%. And I love the I mean I love the just following what's going on in El 13:18 Salvador as a case study for this because I don't know what the population of El Salvador is off the top of my head but like it's a really small country 13:24 obviously and they you know are just they were in this position of we're 13:29 getting screwed by the IMF and you know the just the currency was not performing 13:35 anywhere close to the US dollar which you know I've privileged enough to have easy access to. So, let's just try to do 13:43 something different when everybody's zigging. Let's zag. I'm sure there have been some bumps in 13:48 the road and I've seen some bumps in the road and I would love to hear, you know, what's some maybe that you've 13:54 experienced. But also on the flip side, when you look at El Salvador now on like the global scale or the global stage in 14:01 2025 versus back in 2019 2020, it is night and day of looking at that country 14:07 as a way to not only attract tourists but also increase and improve the infrastructure that you were talking 14:12 about. And then we can start to even go into like the um the the I guess 14:17 juxtaposition of adopting Bitcoin and what that means and then your work with the with the farmers market and what 14:23 that also means for adopting Bitcoin in not the conference sense but just in the practical sense. Um, and I think that's 14:30 kind of like where I get a lot of interest of seeing and following along and why I feel that pull to eventually Challenges and Skepticism in Bitcoin Adoption 14:36 come and visit El Salvador is because like it is the like test use case of 14:43 what a lot of Bitcoiners see as a hypercoitinized world and really moving towards that point where we're like, oh, 14:50 it is gradually then suddenly. So, I know that was a kind of a longer form of a question, but like what has that 14:56 experience been like both good and bad of living through that uh transformation? Yeah, it's it's funny because when you 15:04 like if you have this question and and you go online, whether it's like a simple Google search or on Twitter or 15:10 whatever, you're going to get like every an answer in every part of the spectrum. You're going to have people who say like, "No, it's it's not even real. 15:16 Like, I could not use Bitcoin at all. No one uses it." Blah blah blah. And then you're going to get people who are like, "No, I live completely 100% on Bitcoin." 15:23 Um, and the reality is like probably somewhere in between. Um, it depends on 15:29 the individual of course and if it's a priority for you, then it's very easy to 15:34 make happen. But if it's not a priority for you, if you're not seeking out opportunities to like spend Bitcoin, then like it is what it is. I think one 15:41 of the major things about adoption in El Salvador that I've learned from speaking to Salvadorans is when they were 15:48 dollarized after they had the Salvador and Cologne and then they were dollarized and that was like a from what I understand like a pretty painful 15:55 experience for for the economy, right? And so people had like a relatively fresh fear of that sort of change. And 16:03 then when Bitcoin came into the fold, it kind of came out of nowhere, including 16:08 to most Salvadorans. And there are probably like very much still a lot of 16:14 people, a lot of Salvadorans who are fearful or confused or some people are 16:19 even upset that it's still something that's like a part of of of their country. But I I understand where that 16:25 comes from knowing the context of their financial history and also just like the 16:31 instability of the country, right? always said that like I think the the the people in El Salvador who have like 16:36 a the skepticism are the people who are going to end up being like very become 16:42 evangelists of Bitcoin because they're like they're they're really thinking about it deeply kind of thing. On the 16:47 other side, there's plenty of people who just started kind of using Bitcoin because they really supported the 16:53 president and they are very proud of their country, but those people may have only ever used Chebo and don't actually 17:00 kind of know what's going on. So I think that that the approach of like taking time to understand it and understand 17:07 what it means to you is like a really important aspect of adoption and giving people the opportunity to the other 17:13 thing too is like the educational piece was not introduced at like a state level 17:18 when Bitcoin was announced, right? And that's like one of the problems that well that's like really how my first 17:23 Bitcoin came to be was to fill that gap. And now there's plenty of offerings both at the state level and and in private. 17:30 But when it first happened, it was a little rocky. Of course, like that's how these things go. Adoption is not like, 17:37 you know, a simple linear uphill like up spike. You know what I mean? Like there's people involved and people are The Role of Education in Bitcoin Adoption 17:43 complicated. And this is like a simple technology, but it's also a complicated technology conceptually for a lot of 17:50 people to to understand. And the physicality of it, the tangibility or 17:55 the lack of tangibility of it for a lot of people, I think is a huge barrier. whether it's people in El Salvador or 18:00 people anywhere else in the world for that matter like that's one of the biggest objections from people and I get that you want to have like something 18:07 physical to to represent what's going on because it's hard to conceptualize with these things sometimes I have seen the 18:13 growth of adoption in El Salvador for 3 years and it like in spite of things 18:19 that have happened this year the IMF deal etc it still continues to grow and 18:25 the thing that I find that's really interesting and really powerful is it's grown growing not just in like an 18:30 institutional way or in like a a corporate way or in the center in San Salvador, but it's growing in like 18:37 communities in the mountains. There's a community um called I believe that is is is starting to do some education. 18:43 There's Chel Chowapa, like there's tons of these places that honestly like if you come and visit like 18:50 you're probably never even going to hear about it because they're they're remote, they're in the mountains, there's no expats there. Sure, there's touristy 18:56 things to do, but it's kind of like not necessarily on your radar as a tourist, but these things are popping up and 19:03 growing and people are educating each other and empowering each other. And I think that that's like the thing to 19:08 focus on when it comes to the story of Bitcoin and El Salvador right now. Like there is a lot of good stuff happening 19:13 on the instit in level, but the grassroots efforts is is is what's like 19:19 really making a change in my opinion. Yeah. No, I love that. And cuz this is 19:26 with like any transformation or any change, right? Like you can have a top down approach, which is kind of how it 19:32 started, right? Like it's like this is legal tender. Businesses need to accept this thing now. But to actually get it 19:37 to stick and to get people to want to use it, you need to have that more bottom up grassroots like no wait, this 19:44 is why you should use this. Cuz like if I'm if I'm just set in my ways of like, 19:49 you know, I default to googling things, right? It's like that's just because it's kind of the way that I've been 19:54 programmed. But now I'm starting to be like, wait, no, I'm actually hearing from other people that I respect and 19:59 that are really good at, you know, research or whatever to go to perplexity or chat GBT where I'm like, I I need to 20:06 change my behavior. And a lot of people, we have a sense that we can like change 20:13 others but not ourselves, if that makes sense. And it's like, no, like you you have to start with yourself. So when Building Support Systems for Bitcoin Communities 20:18 when the grassroots when the grassroots things start to get that acceleration to your point it's not linear and it's it 20:25 catches fire and then people start to say like oh this is this is better for my community better for my business 20:30 better for just my general like way of life so that's a really really interesting perspective like thank you 20:36 for sharing that that's awesome of course Kiki I I want to learn a little bit I want to double click on the grassroots 20:42 adoption I'm very curious so this week I'll give you just a for 20:48 context of within my life. I work with everyday business owners and this week a couple 20:54 examples I asked if they have thought about accepting Bitcoin and and they 21:00 just kind of laugh and you know one for example said or asked why and they were like we're oldfashioned we don't know 21:06 anything about Bitcoin and we we don't need it. Another one said, "Honey, we're old school. We're lucky we even accept 21:12 credit cards." And and so these are just everyday, you know, business owners here in my community. You got folks in rural 21:19 communities there. What does discovering something like magic internet money look 21:24 like on a grassroots ground level for these folks? I think it's um there's a lot of like 21:30 similar objections that I've heard even when I've like gone out to a restaurant or something and said, "Do you accept 21:36 Bitcoin?" it, you know, the objections are all kind of the same everywhere, but I think the thing that that really helps 21:43 is is having somebody that can be looked to as a leader that is active in the 21:48 community. And that's why it's important for these circular economies, you know, spawn and to grow and to continue to 21:54 empower other people and then bring in the next generation of leaders and the next one and the next one to have 22:00 somebody who is walking the walk and not just talking the talk and point to and say, "This person seems to be like seems 22:07 to know what they're talking about, seems to be successful, seems to be able to answer all my questions, whatever it 22:12 is." But having somebody who can be pointed to I think is like a huge huge factor and it's really really difficult 22:20 when you are that person and you're kind of feeling alone or isolated in that 22:26 environment to start like at the grassroots summit. It was really amazing to hear the efforts that a lot of people 22:31 are putting in across the US and other places. But like it takes a lot of energy at times. It takes money, you 22:38 know, it takes time away from whatever else you have going on in your life to to be a leader and to like want to 22:43 educate people and empower people. But it's like that one spark can grow an 22:49 entire movement or citadel or community. But again, it kind of comes back to that theme that I've said about the The Future of Bitcoin in El Salvador and Beyond 22:55 physicality and the physical presence I think is is a huge part of of it. And the reality is in El Salvador where it's 23:02 not treated with the capital gains tax, it's a little bit easier to get over the fence, right? The taxation part, I 23:09 think, for a lot of business owners specifically is is something that is really challenging. And I know that 23:14 there's some amazing solutions coming out right now, whether it's like from like a banking level or from like a an 23:20 accountant level. There are solutions that are coming and it's amazing to see that. But in El Salvador, like that's 23:25 why the law is so powerful is because you can spend it without worrying about any sort of repercussions. 23:33 Nice. Yeah. It's it's in the eyes of the government, it is money there, right? Which is a huge leg up. 23:39 Yeah. And I know I've said this before on this podcast, but I think it's worth saying again because like you're seeing it with 23:47 the payments in the farmers market and just across El Salvador in general. And I think that, you know, there's 23:54 in the quote unquote developed or, you know, like developed banking industry of 24:01 the United States, right? Like we've seen a big shift towards institutional adoption, especially in the last few, 24:07 I'll say the last year or so, where you have corporate treasuries and you have banks starting to figure out how they're 24:12 going to custody this thing. some in good ways, some in not so good ways of using, you know, third parties and so on 24:18 and so forth and potential paper Bitcoin where that's happening and it kind of 24:23 eats up a lot of the news because you see the X company bought X millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin, but then you 24:28 have real like usage of what is the 24:34 promise of Bitcoin, peer-to-peer digital cash, like and I've often said that 24:39 that's not going that spark probably isn't going to happen in the United States because You need that problem of 24:46 it's really hard to spend money and you need the solution. In the United States, it's not hard to spend money. You can 24:51 get a credit card in a freaking second. Like you check one box on a website and it's like you're approved. Here's your 24:57 credit limit and then you're just happen to pay immediately. But in these other places that, you know, you start to see 25:04 these really cool use cases and and case studies pop up, um there is there is 25:10 some some spark and innovation happening. I mean like again water finds its level where there will be some sort of institutional coverage or or custody 25:18 probably and then there will be the self-s sovereign Bitcoin. But as long as the self-s sovereign Bitcoin continues to improve and and take those risks then 25:25 that's where I'd like remain you know on that early adoption like gradually then 25:30 suddenly is going to be sooner than we think because it's just really cool to see when it's all online and you can 25:35 connect with people like yourself who are you know in other parts of the world seeing it seeing it uh in real time. 25:40 Yeah, totally. And there's some um there's some really interesting institutional stuff that's coming to El 25:46 Salvador in the next year or so as well since they just passed the Bitcoin banking law. I know that we'll have a 25:52 couple of um discussions on it. I'm not sure quite yet if there's going to be any announcements at adopting, but 25:58 certainly some discussions on it. And I am very much in the camp of of grassroots. That's where my heart is. 26:03 That's what I want to support. But it's naive to think that like the institutional adoption doesn't help with 26:08 that, right? Like it does. It does solidify in people's minds who might be skeptical. Oh, this is something to take 26:14 seriously, you know, and that's okay, too. Do am I a part of that? Do I want to be a part of that? No, not 26:21 necessarily. But I have respect for the the people who have kind of kicked off 26:26 that realm, including in the US. It's easy for people on Twitter to be like, blah blah blah, like whatever. But every 26:33 this is this is what happens with adoption like like there are so many different elements to it. It is a 26:40 complex thing and whatever you think like might happen with adoption, you're going to be surprised probably and 26:45 that's okay. And we're going to look back and like think about like this conversation for example and laugh and 26:51 be like, "Oh my god, we were so naive back then too, you know." No, absolutely. 26:56 In in what ways do you think, Kiki, you know, as around the world, I mean, you 27:02 guys are are leading the charge globally. In what ways do you think that people will be looking up to you or 27:09 could learn from you? I mean, obviously there's like monetary policy, but just at a grassroots practical level, what 27:15 would you say advice maybe you would give to other communities all around the world? 27:20 That's a good question. I feel like it's important to like have good support 27:26 systems around you, including socially. like it's okay to, you know, have a meetup that doesn't necessarily have any 27:33 educational elements to it and is just a time for people to hang out and and 27:39 build relationships. Relationship building is a huge part of this and it's also at least for me as a people person 27:44 like what's helped keep me like sane and be able to like talk through some issues 27:49 and get to a better place um in my work if that makes sense. So having a good 27:54 like uh support system and building relationships around you I think is really really really important. And I 28:01 mean it ultimately comes down to like low time preference, right? Like you have to know that you're not it's not 28:08 like um you know cleaning your house. You don't just do it and then all of a sudden it's it's done. You're going to 28:13 have to put in some time and some effort before you start seeing results, but then that first result, that second 28:19 result, that third result is like so worth it. And in no time once you have that momentum going, you are just gonna 28:25 be like, "Oh, this is normal now." And and you're gonna be the one passing on the torch um to the next people. 28:31 Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And sometimes those meetups, they might have maybe one or two other people that show 28:36 up some, but then you just keep going and another time there will be 10, 20, and next thing you know, you have like a 28:43 really solid community that's showing up to whether it's monthly or quarterly or whatever your whatever your cadence is. 28:49 But I the just to re-echo what you said before like grassroots back in April was 28:56 such an eye openening experience for me of like seeing all of these people basic 29:01 working towards the same goal but just different ways and how they did it and how they were executing on it from every 29:06 corner of the country and and to your point like even all over the world. It was really really like inspiring to see. 29:13 And I I know you mentioned at the top of this call, I think before we hit record, but you were saying that you've been on 29:18 a little bit of a tour yourself with all the these Bitcoin conferences and things that you've been traveling to. You said 29:24 you've hit 15 or you'll hit 15 by the end of the year. Yeah. Yeah. Around 15. Exploring Bitcoin Communities Worldwide 29:29 Yeah. So, tell me about that. What's that been like? Where have you been traveling to? What are what's the like kind of conversations that you're going 29:35 into these events like with what are you looking to get out of them and beyond just meeting other Bitcoiners? 29:42 Yeah. Yeah, it's been amazing. The first one that I went to was in Colombia to the Medigene Bitcoin conference. That 29:49 was cool because it was my first time in South America, but I also didn't realize 29:54 how strong the community out there was and some of I guess just like their priorities that I may have assumed would 30:00 be similar to El Salvador but were very different and how they use Bitcoin and how they unfortunately at times but like 30:07 they may use other options but there's still like a very very strong community of like Bitcoin only people or people 30:13 who are like Bitcoin focused but see um you know opportunities elsewhere whatever ever it is. So, that one was 30:19 really, really interesting and definitely a highlight for me. I've been to a couple of events across Europe as 30:25 well. I wasn't really sure what to expect with the European events because 30:30 again, everything that I saw was just stuff on Twitter and, you know, conversations with friends who had been 30:36 to other events. But I was like really honestly I felt inspired because I didn't realize 30:44 like how many Bitcoiners were in Europe and how passionate they are and what 30:49 they are building and in spite of the fact that like their regulatory environments may not be perfect or 30:55 whatever it is. It's there are so many more people there are so many more Bitcoiners out there than we think that 31:01 there are like it's really encouraging and exciting. Um I guess what I'm looking what I've looked to get out of 31:07 them changes per per event. Like for example, I went to the um Bitcoin 31:12 Filmfest in Poland as well. And that is that was very interesting because it was 31:17 completely cultural focus, right? Like there's no kind of technical conversations or discussions going on 31:23 there except for if there was content in the actual films themselves. But that was cool to see how many people were 31:30 like so focused in on this niche of the cultural aspect of the Bitcoin space. And I've also had the privilege of going 31:37 to some of the Bitcoin plus events which are extremely technical. And so obviously in those ones like the the 31:44 priorities the conversations are very different. Honestly in those ones sometimes they go way over my head 31:49 because I am not a developer. I have really valued those ones because I think it's important to get out of your 31:56 comfort zone. I think it's really easy for Bitcoiners to like find Bitcoin and 32:01 get excited about it and then kind of like stay in their comfort zone and not push themselves to like learn a little bit more, be open to new perspectives. 32:08 But when you're in a a technical environment, even though I may not be able to like absorb all of the 32:14 information or follow all of the, you know, complex cryptography kind of thing, just hearing people talk about 32:19 what they're building and what their ultimate goals with them are allowed me to open my mind to other solutions that 32:24 I maybe would not have explored otherwise, like things like Arc, for example. To me, when I first heard of 32:30 ARC, I was like, what is this? Is this relevant to me? I don't know what's going on here. I don't know if I should 32:36 trust it. But it's come up at various events and now I'm at a point where I'm like, "Oh, this is like we need to be 32:43 talking about this more. I want to learn more about this." And so it does change event to event like what the priorities 32:50 are, what you're learning about, but every event has been wonderful. Another highlight was in Barcelona, the Cipher, 32:56 the Cipher Barcelona Ciphers Conference, I believe it was called. It was the first year they did it. It was pretty 33:02 small as well, which was like maybe like 200 people in total. It was like a really good environment to be able to 33:08 like chat with people. And that's cool because it's a lot of people who are speaking in Spanish having conversations 33:14 about Bitcoin in Spanish, but from a different perspective. It's not necessarily from like, you know, a farmer's perspective in in the in the 33:21 hills of El Salvador. You know, this is like legitimate. Sorry, I shouldn't say legitimate. That's the wrong word, but 33:26 like just a developed world perspective, if you will. And so to see like the similarities and the contrasts of that 33:32 was really interesting as well. No, that's awesome. Yeah, contrary to popular belief, Twitter and 33:40 the real world are not the same place all the time. 33:46 But it's such an interesting paradox about Bitcoin because it is this internet money that lives 100% online, 33:52 but then you have these physical like anchors obviously with mining being like the 33:57 core anchor, but then just meeting Bitcoiners. You know, when people ask me how do I get involved or what should I 34:05 do to learn about Bitcoin? I always say just go to your local meetup and I know most cities they probably just have a 34:11 bit devs. Yeah. Yeah, it goes over like 99.99% of what's talked about at a bit devs 34:18 goes over my head as well. However, when you're not during the not sitting in the actual Socratic seminar, it's not like 34:24 that's how people talk all the time, you know, like like you could ask your quote unquote dumb questions because there's 34:30 no such thing. And you start to learn that even the facilitators the things that they're talking about and they're 34:35 generally very open about it how they they might not know and like they're like this is kind of what I'm taking away from it based off of XYZ like you 34:42 know they can explain a rationale and much better than I would be able to about those specific topics but what's 34:48 so cool about where we are in the Bitcoin adoption phase is there is a bit 34:54 of everything for everyone like I just think of the meetups that we host in Austin and like the spectrum of topics 35:00 from you just general adoption and more like lightning network and we've talked about ARC as well in those in those 35:07 meetups versus like a very technical bit devs versus our design club versus our ABC which is just more general topics 35:14 where you know Bitcoin might come up because a lot of people who are going there are attracted to Bitcoin but the 35:20 topic might be about food or health or XYZ like you name it as long as it's kind of covered in that uh realm of 35:27 freedom tech and that overall ethos But no, I totally hear that and that's and that's it's it's always cool like just 35:34 finding that common ground with a Bitcoiner of like, oh yeah, well this makes sense why we why we're friends now. It's it's a very easy starting 35:41 point to at least have start a conversation and build a rapport. Yeah, definitely. You know what's 35:47 you know what's cool guys and and I'd be curious to hear Kiki your one of the things you mentioned is the importance 35:53 of getting out of your comfort zone and I'd be curious to hear from your perspective on how your advice on how 35:59 but what's cool about Bitcoin is that your cost of living goes down and so you're over time and so you are allow 36:07 you're sort of slowly getting out of the rat race and you have more time freedom and therefore able to follow your 36:13 curiosities a little bit more and you go to the bit devs and and it could be 99% over your head, but you could still you 36:20 might learn something, right? You could follow those curiosities. But what does that look like for you, Kiki, and what would your advice be? Stepping Out of Comfort Zones 36:26 Yeah. Um, this question comes up often for me in conversations, but maybe 36:31 framed a little bit differently from the perspective of like, oh, you're a female in Bitcoin, like how, why, how, like 36:38 what would you say to other female Bitcoiners? And I think the answer to that and the answer to to this question more broadly is like kind of the same. 36:45 Firstly, I will say as I've mentioned, I'm a people person. So, it does come a little bit more naturally to me and my 36:52 experience in restaurants like serving hundreds of people a day. Like, yeah, it's it's I'm just the personality type 36:58 that's a little bit more like that that that jives with a little bit better. So, I will own that. That's fair. But I 37:04 think it's like well what it comes down to for me is like this might sound like a stretch but a lot of it has to do with 37:11 self-worth. I think it's like it's a step in the relationship with yourself where you're like I I'm prioritizing my 37:18 best interest um and my growth and my whether whether it's like financial growth or knowledge or spiritual 37:25 whatever it is but like you have to be able to want something better for yourself and also believe that it's out 37:32 there and that you can find it and that you can achieve it. And unfortunately, I think that this is like the biggest thing that holds people back, no matter 37:39 their background or situation, because, you know, the the times are a little bit weird. We can all agree no matter what 37:46 your perspective on things are, the times are a little bit weird. And especially with like the younger generations that I see, it seems like 37:52 confidence and selfworth is kind of like going downhill. And so, I think that's the biggest hurdle 37:59 from my perspective. How do you solve that? A part of it is like exposure therapy. like you just have to like take 38:06 the cannonball into the pool. But again, that's kind of my personality type, I get that. But it's if you have like from 38:14 what I can see, if you have like a a little bit of hope, a glimmer of hope at all, then this is the right thing for 38:21 you to pursue, right? Like we've seen, you know, these stories of people who have come from very little and have this 38:28 like optimism and hope. And this is something that people who visit El Salvador always note and really really 38:34 love. And that's what I loved about living there for for 3 years was in spite of the chaos of the world. People 38:39 felt hopeful and I didn't feel that when I left Canada in any way, shape or form. But yeah, I guess my my advice or what I 38:46 would say to people is like you don't have to think of it as this external thing. Yes. Bitcoin is is code. Um, and 38:56 there is external factors that you will get into, but when you're in the beginning of your journey, it's actually like kind of an internal thing. It's 39:02 like you having to kind of look yourself in the mirror and say, "What do I want for myself? Do I do I want to pursue 39:09 something that might make my life even just a little bit better?" And even if it doesn't, at least I walk away with 39:14 the knowledge that I tried. Yeah, I think it's No, that that was great. I think I think it's The Role of Hope and Self-Worth 39:19 That was a banger of an answer. Thank you. I think it's the what is it Sha Shank Redemption where it's like hope 39:25 can be a dangerous thing and you know I had a I had a poster on my wall for a really long time from Ryan Holidayiday 39:30 and the Daily Stoic of like confidence is what you know humility is what you don't know and then what fills those 39:37 gaps is your ego and Bitcoin a lot of people will say and it's you know made 39:42 the rounds is like Bitcoin is the ultimate ego test because it just goes against so many of the like natural 39:48 programming and and understanding quote unquote that we're supposed to have. And like as cliche as it sounds, like 39:56 showing up is half the battle because I got to a point where, you know, I was going to meetups in Chicago and Austin 40:02 and I didn't know anyone. So, it was very easy for me to say, "Oh, well, if I just stay home and watch TV tonight or 40:08 or do anything else, then nobody will notice that I'm not there." 40:14 And so, like, that's kind of a easy copout, right? But then you start to go and you start to actually build 40:20 relationships and you start to get some hope because you're like, "Oh, this was really fun. Like that was a really good conversation. This is somebody that I 40:25 could, you know, see myself becoming friends with or see myself working with in the future." Or it's just an it's 40:30 just a cool person to like say, "Yeah, like I saw XYZ person at a meetup." Uh, which I know you said that the industry 40:37 like how big it is, but it's also how small it is, too. Yeah. like you you're more often than 40:43 not like max three degrees away from somebody who you follow on Twitter and you're like wait this person is pumping 40:48 out sick content. So it so like that's the dichotomy and the paradox of it all 40:54 which is really it's just so it's it's such a fun thing to talk about because it does ultimately come back to like the 41:00 philosophical you know promise of Bitcoin which that's what initially got me you know down the 41:06 rabbit hole of understanding sound money and how kind of the human behavior aspect of of Austrian economics and 41:11 opportunity cost. Uh, and then you start to realize like, wait, like this thing is actually kind of cool in terms of how the network supports itself and how you 41:18 reach consensus and what these miners are doing versus the nodes versus just XYZ hodler. So, um, yeah, I I could not 41:26 agree with that answer more. That was Thank you. Thank you again. I feel like you're spitting bars in this in this in 41:32 this recording so far. Yeah, it's um as you were talking, it just reminded me of something that I 41:38 wanted to say as well, which is that like right now, if you're if you're a Bitcoiner and you're like paying a lot of attention to what's going on in 41:43 Twitter right now, um specifically regarding um Bitcoin core development, 41:49 um it can feel like really overwhelming. Like there are times where I'm like, you know what, I'm not going on today. Can't do it. Like I got to protect my energy 41:56 kind of thing. Um, but something that helps me uh understand I guess this a 42:02 little bit more and and also this is maybe because I have been able to like meet some of these people in person and 42:07 and see that like these people are are real people is that everybody is 42:12 actually kind of here like or maybe not everybody but most people are here like with the same goal and the same hopes 42:18 and dreams and ambitions both for themselves and on a bigger perspective. And we may disagree on certain aspects 42:26 or whatever, but at the end of the day, like people are building towards this mission of hyperbornization and 42:33 ultimately of freedom and sovereignty. And it's okay to have disagreements. Let's not be, you know, mean to each 42:39 other about it is what I would like to say to a few people. But like it is generally like a pretty welcoming space 42:46 as well. And it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to like take time and space. and the space is moving fast 42:52 and accelerating quickly and it's hard to keep up with everything that's going on. But like you get to determine like 42:59 it's a choose your own adventure like you get to you're in control and like own that you know that'll make you feel 43:05 a little bit better than just being like my god there's so much. No, I mean at 43:10 the end of the day, we're seeing or at least we will see in my kind of 43:15 perspective the free market play out of and we I'm not even going to pretend to understand the nuances of core knots and 43:23 all the you know oper stuff. Not going to go there. But all I will say is like 43:30 you got two sides and they have a opensourced you know mechanism to give 43:36 their and plead their case. let the best idea win. That's how how Bitcoin works 43:42 like and ultimately that's where it will play out. And there will be stories and uh you know lore that that'll come as a 43:49 result of it. But that's really what I continue to come back to of like oh it's 43:55 pretty cool that like you know I mean people are being you know getting in fights on Twitter like that. But that's a part for the course with Twitter. When 44:02 I was you know I wasn't following the block size war that closely. This one I'm following a little bit closer 44:07 because I'm more ingrained. So I'm like seeing things play out and I'm like this is cool like how it works and what the 44:13 discourse looks like and why people think certain ways and and then ultimately let the free market decide. 44:19 Yeah, 100%. Jason, do you even You're not on Twitter, so do you even like know what 44:25 we're talking about? Yeah, I very much know what you're talking about. 44:30 But like you, uh, it's it's it's over my 44:35 head and there's people I respect on both sides. And no, that Jason's doing it right. He's 44:42 totally offline. I tell him every time every time it comes up, I'm like, "Dude, I wish I 44:48 could I wish I could do that." Yeah. I love that for you, Kiki. You are doing all this incredible Future Aspirations and Family 44:54 work. What's what's kind of the bigger story that you hope your your life and work will tell in the next say uh five 45:01 or 10 years from now? I like that question. This might be a cliche answer or maybe a controversial, 45:07 I don't know, but like you know I want to have a family. I love working. I've always been like a hard worker and 45:13 enjoyed work and I part of that is because I do work that I enjoy and always prioritize that. I I'm getting to 45:19 the point where like I want to settle down and have a family and raise kids. And whether or not that includes me 45:25 working, I'm I'm I'm not entirely sure yet. But I hope to take like all of these experiences and these 45:30 relationships and this educational knowledge and be able to pass that along to my kids and like raise kids who are 45:37 also interested and want to be involved in the space and in the adoption of 45:42 Bitcoin worldwide and in ultimately like empowering others because yes, it is 45:48 going to happen very quickly and it is happening quickly, but like I don't think there's going to be like an end to 45:53 this train. You know what I mean? It's not like we're going to wake up one day in 50 years and be like, "All right, we 45:58 did it. What's next?" You know, it's like it's there's always going to be iteration and innovation. And I hope 46:04 that like maybe I'll have some good stories of my experiences that I can pass along. But yeah, ultimately like I 46:09 I look forward to being a mother and passing along my knowledge to my children, to my communities, and serving 46:15 my communities around me. That's awesome. Yeah. Go moms. Go moms. That's right. For sure. 46:25 Go ahead. Yeah, I mean this is just my my last question and you know this is a more 46:30 shorter term question on that one. So maybe even I don't know if maybe we'll do something with the editing because I feel like that's a good question to end 46:36 on. But I do want to uh ask about just like the upcoming adopting Bitcoin and 46:42 all the stuff that you're working on and like you know I mean I sent a screenshot to Jason of of uh one of the messages I 46:48 got from you in a group chat earlier of the world the circular economy world fair. So just tell us a little bit about 46:54 that and you know what you got upcoming in the in what is it 8 weeks away or something along those lines. So I'll get 47:01 just shill shill away and and let us know uh why people should hop on a plane and get to El Salvador. Upcoming Events and Community Engagement 47:07 Yeah, thank you. I just pulled my phone over because I've got a counter. We're two months, one day, and three hours 47:13 away according to my phone. So November 14th and 15th are the dates for adopting Bitcoin. And like I said, 47:20 it'll be the fifth year that we're doing the conference in El Salvador. We're doing it at the same venue that we did 47:26 last year called Salamanca. And it is this like really gorgeous setting. I think that's what plays into like a very 47:33 positive experience. I have not enjoyed the conferences that I've gone to that have been, you know, in like kind of a 47:39 hotel conference center type setting as much as I have the ones that are in 47:45 nature a little bit more open air. And obviously in El Salvador we have much warmer weather. So it's nice to be able 47:51 to actually enjoy that well in the conference setting. But yeah, we have a lot of cool things going on. The 47:57 circular economy world's fair is one of that I'm super super super excited about. The idea there being that of 48:03 course El Salvador being like seen as this leader in the heart of Bitcoin adoption, but also there are so many 48:09 other communities around the world that are popping up and are doing incredible work as well. and we wanted to find a way to showcase that beyond just like a 48:17 talk or a presentation. Those are super valuable as well. But again, bringing it back to that inerson experience. So, 48:24 we've set aside a portion an area of our large expo hall for booths for circular 48:29 economies to come and join us. So, they'll have a physical space. Some of them might bring like books or or 48:34 products from people in their communities or whatever it is, but it's essentially a space to check in on what people are doing around the world. And 48:41 so far from from what I can see, we've got representation from Africa, from 48:46 Europe, of course, all across Latin America and North America and the Caribbean. And hopefully we'll see maybe 48:51 somebody from Asia. So, um yeah, it's cool to see how circular economies are playing out. And we want to facilitate 48:57 that a little bit more. So, that that's the goal there. And then we also have um 50% English and 50% Spanish content this 49:05 year, which we're really excited about. We've always offered translations, English to Spanish and Spanish to 49:10 English, but this year the idea was like our audience is 50% Spanish, 50% English 49:16 usually. So like let's let's empower this and play into this. And we have people coming from outside of El 49:21 Salvador, from all across Latin America as well. And then speakers of course from the US, Canada, Europe, etc., etc. 49:27 Just all speaking about different areas of adoption of course. And then another thing that we did last year for the 49:33 first time which we'll be carrying into this year is the Bitcoin pedanos area. So like kind of a kids zone and corner 49:39 and we have some amazing support on that from the Bitcoin juniors club and also from me premier Bitcoin. And so it's not 49:46 like it's not a daycare. The idea is not that you just like drop your kids and they play with toys and leave type 49:51 thing. It's actual education. There's panels, there's presentations, there's videos. We're going to have some content 49:58 for specific like specified for families who might want to explore like homeschooling or solutions like that 50:05 that are relevant more to families. And yeah, it's it's kind of going back to that thing that you mentioned earlier, 50:11 Jack, which was like there's kind of something for everyone. I don't like I don't want to say that 50:16 we're a conference that is something for everyone because we're not. And the reason that we're not is because we're 50:22 Bitcoin only. So there's we're we're very like strict and and and specific 50:27 about that, but the experience is kind of like uh you know, you can bring your whole family and everybody's going to 50:33 get something out of it. It we basically bring in all of these food vendors. We bring in farmers market um vendors as 50:41 well. You've got talks, workshops, expo booths, activities. We might even have 50:46 ice baths this year. I'm not sure. Hopefully. But it's like a pop-up village and you can come for the day and 50:52 you can you can learn, you can get super technical, you can be philosophical, your kids can learn about Bitcoin, you 50:58 can bring grandma if you want. Like it's it's an entire experience that we are building. And I'm really proud of that 51:04 and I'm really excited for this year. And our theme is the network effect. So, it's all about how we as a community 51:12 come together and how we strengthen the network as a whole by working together and collaborating on adoption worldwide. 51:18 Sounds like party. Yeah, I hear the I hear the kids zone and I think I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Scholastic book fair, 51:25 but that's where my head goes. Well, we also have an author's corner um and a book signing table. So, like kind 51:32 of a little bit. I like that. That's awesome. And if you need Kiki, 51:38 I should also mention, sorry, there are a ton of side events as well. Like I can't even keep track of how many there 51:44 are and individual events that are happening around. So Bitcoin Historico is being run by the Bitcoin office in 51:50 the historical center. There's a health and longevity summit that's happening the week before. There's a Noster day 51:56 that's being planned. My first Bitcoin is doing their unconference in San Salvador as well. We've got adopting 52:02 Bitcoin. There's a couple events coming up in the week after adopting. And then the weekend following is another event 52:09 called Economia Bitcoin um which is going to be in Berlin, the city in the mountains that has over 150 Bitcoin 52:16 merchants. So you can come and come just for adopting if you want, but I would 52:21 encourage you to explore all of the events that are happening because yeah, there's a lot going on. 52:27 100%. Kiki, where uh do you want to send folks 52:32 to learn more about you and know what you're up to? Yeah. Um I would love to say that I 52:37 spend more time on Nostra than I do, but that would be a lie. I spend a lot of time on Twitter. Probably is the most 52:42 up-to-date platform for me. I'm Bitcoin Baby B-aby. 52:48 Um and like I said, focused on adopting Bitcoin, which is adopting BTC on Twitter as well. 52:53 Amazing. Thank you, Kiki. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah.